Jason and I are throwing around the idea of converting bonus points in
White Wolf games to xp, to be spent at character creation. This attempts limit the imbalanced character problem so common to wod.
We figured we would throw this out there, and encourage poeple to experiment, and see if it is more or less balanced.
We were thinking a 4:1 ratio makes the most sense.
Moderator: Mods
Freebie/BP to XP Conversion Project
Threading the Gerbil since 1982
The issue that I see with this may be what you two were talking about, but the way that bonus points spend they don't lose their efficiency as you go up in power. In exalted I could see this being ok, it would actually force you to not min/max....well it would force you not to min/max in all games, but the way that you buy charms in exalted makes it a more viable solution...I don't know, I might just need more time to mull it over but I have a negative knee-jerk reaction to it right now.
I'm not sure that this accomplishes very much. Even with XP, the 'best thing' to do is to take attributes and abilities as high as you can and leave others extremely low for use with the xp that has been converted into BP. Its basically the same thing. If anything, its almost worse simply because with a 1:4 you're giving about as close to optimal BP:XP as can be gotten, so its actually -more- tempting to try to min-max as much as possible in order to get as much out of the starting xp as you can.
so, after looking at this for a while, i've come up with some interesting results.
also, i don't agree with your assessment steven. at least as concerns optimal pt expenditure, though i do think many people will take that route. the higher dots give diminishing returns, making high skills and atts less worthwhile. only things you intend for frequent opposed rolls will end up super high, and since your skills don't have to be that high for most charms, you end up with fewer 5's overall in skills.
xp ratio's better than 1:4 are very easily obtained. 1:3 is the ratio they intended, given the rate of flaw buyoff to xp. 1:5-1:7 are more in the range of optimized bp:xp. 1:4 seems a more happy medium.
but anyway, this is what i've found; feel free to disagree, and tell me why you disagree. part of the challenge of figuring out this project is about discovering what players FEEL is better, whether or not it actually is, and to see what that leads to.
also, i don't agree with your assessment steven. at least as concerns optimal pt expenditure, though i do think many people will take that route. the higher dots give diminishing returns, making high skills and atts less worthwhile. only things you intend for frequent opposed rolls will end up super high, and since your skills don't have to be that high for most charms, you end up with fewer 5's overall in skills.
xp ratio's better than 1:4 are very easily obtained. 1:3 is the ratio they intended, given the rate of flaw buyoff to xp. 1:5-1:7 are more in the range of optimized bp:xp. 1:4 seems a more happy medium.
but anyway, this is what i've found; feel free to disagree, and tell me why you disagree. part of the challenge of figuring out this project is about discovering what players FEEL is better, whether or not it actually is, and to see what that leads to.
Exalted:
Reduces number of skills drastically, and encourages either extreme specialization in a couple of skills, and over all skills remain at the 2-3 dot level.
Encourages a few high attributes with mostly 2's in other attributes.
Increases starting essence.
Increases average number of charms.
Reduces number of merits purchased.
Higher, less diverse backgrounds.
Virtues remain the same, maybe slightly more balanced.
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Old WoD/Trinity (using current lvl x multiplier advancement formula):
Drastically increases the number of skills at 2, reduces the number of skills at 4-5 (maxed skills are less important in WoD than in exalted)
More 2's and 5's in attributes.
Fewer Merits purchased.
More disciplines at the 2 dot level, more diverse discipline spread.
More backgrounds at the 2 dot level, greater diversification, fewer high lvl backgrounds.
Lower starting humanity and willpower, higher starting conscience.
Roughly the same starting arete, gnosis, etc.
Higher starting Psi (when using standard psi formula)
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Old WoD/Trinity (using next lvl x multiplier advancement formula):
More 2's and 5's in attributes.
More skills at 1 and 3 (3's purchased with basic points, xp to purchase 1's).
Single high dot power, more varied secondary powers usually at 1 or 2.
Higher starting Psi, similar arete, gnosis, etc.
Lower Humanity and Will.
Similar starting virtues.
Fewer merits.
Fewer overall backgrounds, more 1 dot backgrounds and high backgrounds.
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Aberrant/Adventure
Quantum slightly higher, and other traits generally higher, since lower ratio of pts spent buying quantum.
Lower willpower to same willpower, depending on overall character design goals.
More 1 and 2 dot skills before eruption.
More pre-eruption attributes, mostly 2's and 4-5's.
Post erruption points spent less on atts and skills, giving higher bg's, and higher power scores.
Possibly lower taint, depending on the values of the player.
Fewer merits.
Threading the Gerbil since 1982
also, i encourage actually trying this with a real character sheet. when i did this with exalted i was surprised by how little you could actually get out of the points.
the skills especially were bad, because you generally get a 1:7 ratio on them. charms get better because they were originally 1:2. essence too.
the skills especially were bad, because you generally get a 1:7 ratio on them. charms get better because they were originally 1:2. essence too.
Threading the Gerbil since 1982
Your analysis overall seems to indicate that people will probably favor either the high or low extreme for most systems which is, to my mind, not favorable if the goal of the change is to balance things.
As far as Exalted in specific goes, higher ability ratings are still desirable, regardless of charm pre-reqs, simply because it increases your dice-adder cap for having it higher. Further there are some abilities (notably Craft, Occult, Lore, and Linguistics) that people are required to have higher to be able to perform some acts at all (in this case both crafting and speaking more languages). It is true that people won't necessarily pursue high ratings for abilities that they do not plan to use often, but my experience with Exalted is that most characters have a core of about 5 or so abilities that they excel in and have moderate or no rating in most others.
As far as Exalted in specific goes, higher ability ratings are still desirable, regardless of charm pre-reqs, simply because it increases your dice-adder cap for having it higher. Further there are some abilities (notably Craft, Occult, Lore, and Linguistics) that people are required to have higher to be able to perform some acts at all (in this case both crafting and speaking more languages). It is true that people won't necessarily pursue high ratings for abilities that they do not plan to use often, but my experience with Exalted is that most characters have a core of about 5 or so abilities that they excel in and have moderate or no rating in most others.
i'm interested in seeing a couple of different archetypes.
for solars:
the crafter, as you pointed out, is a really good example archetype.
the martial artist
the ranged combatant
the sorcerer
for lunars:
one of each caste
for DB's
martial artist
anything else
generalist
siddies:
martial artist
sorcerer
generalist
owod i am fairly certain that this model will make a more balanced character. exalted, i'm not certain. which is why i'm asking people about it.
the reason i think it is a bit more realistic (and potentially more worhtwhile to run and allowing greater advancement in game) is b/c not everything can be high. assuming you get 5 skills at 5, you end up with 40pts left (10bp's; normally you would have 15 left), so you end up being able to get less other stuff... basically you end up choosing between a bunch of ggoed skills, or fewer skills and some other stuff. you don't have an all around powerful character. you end up depending on your circle more to fill the roles you can't (good for gameplay) or being a lower lvl generalist. And static values end up being overall a bit lower, allowing people to get their opposed skills lower if they want.
one of my annoyances in exlated is that you can always expect to be fighting a 10-13 dice pool, and characters start out as good as they will be for the next 100 years, but with this set up a given character simply cannot have a high pool in everything that matters... and with the other traits being more beneficial, you get more of them at the start and don't have to begin your xp spending by automatically buying essence and charms. basically i'm thinking this will lead to an xp expenditure more like the book suggests, or characters that are focused and more reliant on others.
but i'm still not certain that all archetypes will be well served by this system. or even be possible. I think that lunars will be best served by it, while solars will be... different. I'm not certain what would happen to DB's and sidereals.
for solars:
the crafter, as you pointed out, is a really good example archetype.
the martial artist
the ranged combatant
the sorcerer
for lunars:
one of each caste
for DB's
martial artist
anything else
generalist
siddies:
martial artist
sorcerer
generalist
owod i am fairly certain that this model will make a more balanced character. exalted, i'm not certain. which is why i'm asking people about it.
the reason i think it is a bit more realistic (and potentially more worhtwhile to run and allowing greater advancement in game) is b/c not everything can be high. assuming you get 5 skills at 5, you end up with 40pts left (10bp's; normally you would have 15 left), so you end up being able to get less other stuff... basically you end up choosing between a bunch of ggoed skills, or fewer skills and some other stuff. you don't have an all around powerful character. you end up depending on your circle more to fill the roles you can't (good for gameplay) or being a lower lvl generalist. And static values end up being overall a bit lower, allowing people to get their opposed skills lower if they want.
one of my annoyances in exlated is that you can always expect to be fighting a 10-13 dice pool, and characters start out as good as they will be for the next 100 years, but with this set up a given character simply cannot have a high pool in everything that matters... and with the other traits being more beneficial, you get more of them at the start and don't have to begin your xp spending by automatically buying essence and charms. basically i'm thinking this will lead to an xp expenditure more like the book suggests, or characters that are focused and more reliant on others.
but i'm still not certain that all archetypes will be well served by this system. or even be possible. I think that lunars will be best served by it, while solars will be... different. I'm not certain what would happen to DB's and sidereals.
Threading the Gerbil since 1982
