actually, you would convert to daeva. i'm not doing translation by just name. if i did, the long and storied clan brujah, one of the most populous clans in owod, would be a tiny biker gang that's only 50 years old.
no, the way i'm doing it is fitting it to the nearest corelation in nwod. but daeva are better anyway. and you don't get two different flaws, one of which fucks up your dice royally.
the joys of remake. rather than just convert xp, we do a total remake.
step 1: you make character by nwod rules
step 2: i give you xp for the summer played and you spend it
step 3: i give you all the merits you formerly had, as well as backgrounds (or at least all those that still exist/fit/whatever the nwod system)
step 4: you cry at how badly you were nerfed, until you look at your weak, pathetic, formerly invicible elders, then laugh as plans of joyful diablerie dance in your head.
step 1: you make character by nwod rules
step 2: i give you xp for the summer played and you spend it
step 3: i give you all the merits you formerly had, as well as backgrounds (or at least all those that still exist/fit/whatever the nwod system)
step 4: you cry at how badly you were nerfed, until you look at your weak, pathetic, formerly invicible elders, then laugh as plans of joyful diablerie dance in your head.
Threading the Gerbil since 1982
Sayeth Stone
mmmm diablerie... cant wait... gimme some of that elder yumminess...
*critical shift*
pthgghh... blechh
what is this blood?!? why would you give me that?? are you delusional?
:: Deep down there is a little voice crying "Its not fair, finally get their blood and its useless to me"::
*critical shift*
pthgghh... blechh
what is this blood?!? why would you give me that?? are you delusional?
:: Deep down there is a little voice crying "Its not fair, finally get their blood and its useless to me"::
That which is not dead can eternal lie and with strange eons even death may die
My Color is Blue
I value Knowledge, logic, and deceit. I love to pursue wisdom but also to manipulate and deceive. At my best, I am brilliant and progressive. At my worst, I am treacherous and cold. My symbol is a water droplet. My enemies are green and red.
My Color is Blue
I value Knowledge, logic, and deceit. I love to pursue wisdom but also to manipulate and deceive. At my best, I am brilliant and progressive. At my worst, I am treacherous and cold. My symbol is a water droplet. My enemies are green and red.
A fairly strong argument for eep adjustments for the Ordo Dracul drafted by some members of the Cam. I think it should be considered, given the total exp prices involved between Cruac, Theban Sorcerery and the Coils of the Dragon.
http://www.petitiononline.com/odcp1/petition.html
http://www.petitiononline.com/odcp1/petition.html
So we haven't talked about it much Cheyne, mostly cause I'm an NPC at this point. How do you think this change will effect the game? I understand that the rules flow differently and perhaps less complicatedly. But there are people that didn't know the old rules and I doubt will learn the new. I would think there might be some resistance to change, but I haven't talked to anyone about it. Personally, if I were playing in the summer game I wouldn't like it, just cause I like old WoD. Metaplot and all that goodness. Rules we've worked out through a lot of trial and error. I know Jason, for one, has expressed interest in the new system for a while now. I'm curious what you (Cheyne) and others (you guys) think about it - not in terms of should it happen (cause it is), but how you think it might improve things.
Thoughts? Words?
Thoughts? Words?
for those that never learned the rules I would think changing systems would not really matter... I mean if you played more than 1 summer you should have had time to at least get the gist of the rules, not memorized or anything but the basic idea... and the change affects you more the longer you played that character (which seems to me to be a minority) and steps have been taken to mitigate that... system vs system preference is all a matter of taste and WoD is still WoD either way... plot is mostly still unchanged I thought... unless you are referring to the whole ghenna/ragnarok looming on the horizon, but how many players actually were worried about that or thought about it on a regular basis??
me personally, I will like the fact that there will be less rule fixes in play and that generation is less of a barrier than it was, also that a high supernatural stat (Blood Potentcy, Gnosis, ect) has a built in drawback that has to be surmounted in some fashion... the dual classification (ie Path/Order for mages) allows for more motivations to be involved as well as letting someone be in control in 1 sphere and not in others... for those that work to be in power of both may not totally control you because you only share 1 aspect with them, which gives you an avenue to balk those that in OWoD you were nearly powerless to affect... I also like the opportunity the critical shift allows for re-writing characters... between re-writing and everything people that had issues with their character can now fix them... in my case I am getting something I believe I will really enjoy and by Rules as Written I am pretty much setting my character on a 6 month clock to become a non-soul sucking life leech... Cheyne has kinda ruled a possibility for an extension since the rules are vague on some things but still I am setting myself up for some difficult issues both good and bad so I think it will be more fun....
me personally, I will like the fact that there will be less rule fixes in play and that generation is less of a barrier than it was, also that a high supernatural stat (Blood Potentcy, Gnosis, ect) has a built in drawback that has to be surmounted in some fashion... the dual classification (ie Path/Order for mages) allows for more motivations to be involved as well as letting someone be in control in 1 sphere and not in others... for those that work to be in power of both may not totally control you because you only share 1 aspect with them, which gives you an avenue to balk those that in OWoD you were nearly powerless to affect... I also like the opportunity the critical shift allows for re-writing characters... between re-writing and everything people that had issues with their character can now fix them... in my case I am getting something I believe I will really enjoy and by Rules as Written I am pretty much setting my character on a 6 month clock to become a non-soul sucking life leech... Cheyne has kinda ruled a possibility for an extension since the rules are vague on some things but still I am setting myself up for some difficult issues both good and bad so I think it will be more fun....
That which is not dead can eternal lie and with strange eons even death may die
My Color is Blue
I value Knowledge, logic, and deceit. I love to pursue wisdom but also to manipulate and deceive. At my best, I am brilliant and progressive. At my worst, I am treacherous and cold. My symbol is a water droplet. My enemies are green and red.
My Color is Blue
I value Knowledge, logic, and deceit. I love to pursue wisdom but also to manipulate and deceive. At my best, I am brilliant and progressive. At my worst, I am treacherous and cold. My symbol is a water droplet. My enemies are green and red.
Two things.
The first is addendum to my post above about the Coils of the Dragon. One adjustment that may be worth making to limit the cheapness of taking a lot of first tier coils is that the first tier coils might be made to cost "the number of coils known" plus the one you've already got. So, for example, If you know all 3 tiers of the Coil of Blood and two tiers of the Coil of the Beast, learning the first tier of the Coil of Banes would cost you 2 (you know two coils) +1 (new 'rating') =3x7(out of clan)=21 exp. This has the side effect of actually making the second tier cheaper in some cases, as in this case learning the second tier of the Coil of Banes would cost the student 14 exp. I can do some math later to determine the total cost for learning all coils in this fashion to compare it to the value obtained by the Cam members in the above link, if anyone cares.
Second thing. I'm mixed about the switch. I've always liked the metaplot from oWoD, and, being relatively new to the Summer Game, the change doesn't really affect me at all. I've always wanted to galavant around with the Vampire metaplot. I've always found the Noddist followers of the Path of Caine to be awesome - not only do you get to chase metaplot, but you get to fight the Beast for doing so - bitchin'! I've read through a lot of it, and I've always sort of wanted to play through the Transylvania Chronicles, simply because it is so steeped in metaplot.
That said, I'm sort of looking forward to this summer's game, as it will be interesting to see how things work out. I also think that, nWod or old, the Covenents make a bit more sense to me than two monolithic Sects do. Plus, I'm interested to see how Final Knights ties in.
The first is addendum to my post above about the Coils of the Dragon. One adjustment that may be worth making to limit the cheapness of taking a lot of first tier coils is that the first tier coils might be made to cost "the number of coils known" plus the one you've already got. So, for example, If you know all 3 tiers of the Coil of Blood and two tiers of the Coil of the Beast, learning the first tier of the Coil of Banes would cost you 2 (you know two coils) +1 (new 'rating') =3x7(out of clan)=21 exp. This has the side effect of actually making the second tier cheaper in some cases, as in this case learning the second tier of the Coil of Banes would cost the student 14 exp. I can do some math later to determine the total cost for learning all coils in this fashion to compare it to the value obtained by the Cam members in the above link, if anyone cares.
Second thing. I'm mixed about the switch. I've always liked the metaplot from oWoD, and, being relatively new to the Summer Game, the change doesn't really affect me at all. I've always wanted to galavant around with the Vampire metaplot. I've always found the Noddist followers of the Path of Caine to be awesome - not only do you get to chase metaplot, but you get to fight the Beast for doing so - bitchin'! I've read through a lot of it, and I've always sort of wanted to play through the Transylvania Chronicles, simply because it is so steeped in metaplot.
That said, I'm sort of looking forward to this summer's game, as it will be interesting to see how things work out. I also think that, nWod or old, the Covenents make a bit more sense to me than two monolithic Sects do. Plus, I'm interested to see how Final Knights ties in.
there is a list, and since i have nothing better to do (my alternatives are watch new amsterdam and masturbate, and i really wanted to save the last until later so i'll have something to do), i will present it.
pro's
1. simplicity and elegance of rules
basically, the new system is better in every way. game design has come a long way since gygax first made dd, and even since the first of the toucy-feely, character-centered, storytelling games started appearing. it has become something of a science (just read the articles on the wizards sight if you don't believe me). people collect data, analyze complex playtests (wizkids of course ignores all this, but i digress), and take socialpsychological factors into account, all before finalizing a game.
what this means is that the game we've got took into account all the fuck ups from owod, and mostly fixed them, both the mechanical ones and the play-style ones. the rules provide clear cross-system equivalents for the different stuff in the nwod (mages, werewolves, pink dinosaurs, etc, all can interact in the rules without the crazy mess that it became before, and thus all the ad-hoc crap we had to make up is unecessary, making coming into the game easier). the rules are more clear, more simple, and have fewer exceptions that have to be learned by players. all to the good.
2. less polarized setting
in owod, there was always an us/them mentality, and it was made stronger by there being a "bad guy" organization for every system. it was always black/white, with little in the middle. the new story, while often less flavorful, is also less... lame. yes, pentex/sabat/technocracy were cool, but they were also overused, and really limited the directions you could take campaigns. the new stuff still has some of thes types of divisions, but they are less pronounced, and less focus is placed on "fighting the good fight" as it were. this leaves time for characters to develop their own place in the setting, instead of just being soldiers in a war effort (a complaint i've heard on both msg boards and for my own game(s).
3. more open world of darkness
the owod was really very closed off, both in social structure, and in plot direction. monolithic organizations ruled vast swaths of the world, a you couldn't do anything in the metaplot without determing where the technocracy or pentex would come down on something. and no one played nice with each other because of soul deep hatred for other types or factions. the nwod still has emnities, and still leaves room for large organizations, but is careful to avoid giving the different supernaturals an inate, spiritually mandated hatred for other creatures, and to avoid placing organizations that will ruin plots with their presence. these changes result in a lot more room for interaction, and for the storyteller to tell some decent stories.
4. better politics, especially in larp
owod organizations were basically miserable edifices, worn by time, clogged by beuraucracy, and rotting with corruption. these organizations had only one primary enemy that engaged them, and the organizations themselves shifted to reflect this conflict and forced members to engage it as a matter of course. while this is a cool idea for a novel or comic, it creates some rather limiting conditions for characters. even the attempts at further divisions, such as clans, often didn't have the intended effect, as there were so many divisions that characters often didn't pay attention to them.
nwod creates a more dynamic play environment, or at least the potential for one. multiple different organization vying for power, multiple sub-organizations that split loyalties, but only about 5 of each usually, so that people can focus on them enough for them to matter, and so that the different organizations can all see representation in a good sized play group. i feel this will lead to more interaction and politicing than previously existed.
5. no god powers
they have yet to release 6+ dot powers, and i hope they never do. or at least not on the magnitude of owod. maybe, maybe a 6th dot could be ok. but that's as high as i want to see. mage has effects that require a higher mastery, but none that actually give new abilities at that level, at least to my knowledge... anyway. power. power is bad in too large a dose. experience is slower, powers are more balanced. and there is pretty much always resistance, which means that people don't just get to play with you like a toy and make you feel powerless (again, good for novels, but not for most games).
6. the menagerie is... simplified
there aren't as many supernatural creatures running around, or at least not as many types. there may be later after they run out of suplement ideas, but for the most part they've kept it pretty simple. and they didn't branch out into as many wierd things as before, like gypsies and stuff. but at the same time, the new stuff can present new, original creatures if need be.
cons
1. abandoning metaplot
sad for those that got on the history of it. and while there is some in the nwod, and some will carry over from owod in my games, most of it is just... gone. but honestly, it didn't make games run better. it made time spent thinking about them more interesting, but it just made games more sluggish. and took the focus away from characters and their personal endeavors, which was always supposed to be the focus of wod, and of character driven rp.
2. bloodlines/legacies/lodges
the new PrC's of wod. go, buy splat books, give WW your money! i've banned alot of it, at least at the start, but there isn't a good way to eliminate it entirely. when used freely these systems return alot of the flaws the nwod tried to get away from... stupid.
3. no direction inherrent in the system
sort of connected to con #1, but different. basically, because there is no monolithic social structure guiding you, and no primary enemy to throw yourself at, you end up just kind of doing nothing unless you set goals for yourself, or the gm is good and takes you someplace. it is, in some ways, alot more work for players and gm's alike. good, and bad.
4. de-powering mechanisms
the pendulum swung too far in nwod. i understand why, but it was just overdone. basically, every system has a way of screwing over powerful characters, whether it's essence bleed, paradox, or torpors that make you forget everything, every creature basically hands in its character sheet at higher levels. which really isn't even necessary to limit power, as power is so much harder to come by in nwod anyway.
5. the 5-of structure and the contrived nature of the metaplot
everything comes in 5's, didn't you know? yes, WW has always had a sort of formula for its critters (split into a few groups, w/a few subgroups, label 'em, give em powers that make each group into a well known stereotype) but the new system is really, really bad. there seriously are 5 tribe/clan/traditions in every book, and when other divisions are introduced, there are 5 of them as well. and the definitions of these divisions are often really generic, formulaic, stereotyped, and contrived. oh, and copied from modern pop culture (not just the last century modern, but more like the last 5 minutes modern, and cut and pasted in; mage could be renamed new age wicca crap 101). the overarching stories for these creatures is so banal, simplified, and trite that it's actually kind of funny. and lame. basically any meaning you want is player/gm driven, and that means, as stated above, more work. boo!
i'm sure there are more things, but these are the ones that really stand out for me. but i too am curious as to what others think.
pro's
1. simplicity and elegance of rules
basically, the new system is better in every way. game design has come a long way since gygax first made dd, and even since the first of the toucy-feely, character-centered, storytelling games started appearing. it has become something of a science (just read the articles on the wizards sight if you don't believe me). people collect data, analyze complex playtests (wizkids of course ignores all this, but i digress), and take socialpsychological factors into account, all before finalizing a game.
what this means is that the game we've got took into account all the fuck ups from owod, and mostly fixed them, both the mechanical ones and the play-style ones. the rules provide clear cross-system equivalents for the different stuff in the nwod (mages, werewolves, pink dinosaurs, etc, all can interact in the rules without the crazy mess that it became before, and thus all the ad-hoc crap we had to make up is unecessary, making coming into the game easier). the rules are more clear, more simple, and have fewer exceptions that have to be learned by players. all to the good.
2. less polarized setting
in owod, there was always an us/them mentality, and it was made stronger by there being a "bad guy" organization for every system. it was always black/white, with little in the middle. the new story, while often less flavorful, is also less... lame. yes, pentex/sabat/technocracy were cool, but they were also overused, and really limited the directions you could take campaigns. the new stuff still has some of thes types of divisions, but they are less pronounced, and less focus is placed on "fighting the good fight" as it were. this leaves time for characters to develop their own place in the setting, instead of just being soldiers in a war effort (a complaint i've heard on both msg boards and for my own game(s).
3. more open world of darkness
the owod was really very closed off, both in social structure, and in plot direction. monolithic organizations ruled vast swaths of the world, a you couldn't do anything in the metaplot without determing where the technocracy or pentex would come down on something. and no one played nice with each other because of soul deep hatred for other types or factions. the nwod still has emnities, and still leaves room for large organizations, but is careful to avoid giving the different supernaturals an inate, spiritually mandated hatred for other creatures, and to avoid placing organizations that will ruin plots with their presence. these changes result in a lot more room for interaction, and for the storyteller to tell some decent stories.
4. better politics, especially in larp
owod organizations were basically miserable edifices, worn by time, clogged by beuraucracy, and rotting with corruption. these organizations had only one primary enemy that engaged them, and the organizations themselves shifted to reflect this conflict and forced members to engage it as a matter of course. while this is a cool idea for a novel or comic, it creates some rather limiting conditions for characters. even the attempts at further divisions, such as clans, often didn't have the intended effect, as there were so many divisions that characters often didn't pay attention to them.
nwod creates a more dynamic play environment, or at least the potential for one. multiple different organization vying for power, multiple sub-organizations that split loyalties, but only about 5 of each usually, so that people can focus on them enough for them to matter, and so that the different organizations can all see representation in a good sized play group. i feel this will lead to more interaction and politicing than previously existed.
5. no god powers
they have yet to release 6+ dot powers, and i hope they never do. or at least not on the magnitude of owod. maybe, maybe a 6th dot could be ok. but that's as high as i want to see. mage has effects that require a higher mastery, but none that actually give new abilities at that level, at least to my knowledge... anyway. power. power is bad in too large a dose. experience is slower, powers are more balanced. and there is pretty much always resistance, which means that people don't just get to play with you like a toy and make you feel powerless (again, good for novels, but not for most games).
6. the menagerie is... simplified
there aren't as many supernatural creatures running around, or at least not as many types. there may be later after they run out of suplement ideas, but for the most part they've kept it pretty simple. and they didn't branch out into as many wierd things as before, like gypsies and stuff. but at the same time, the new stuff can present new, original creatures if need be.
cons
1. abandoning metaplot
sad for those that got on the history of it. and while there is some in the nwod, and some will carry over from owod in my games, most of it is just... gone. but honestly, it didn't make games run better. it made time spent thinking about them more interesting, but it just made games more sluggish. and took the focus away from characters and their personal endeavors, which was always supposed to be the focus of wod, and of character driven rp.
2. bloodlines/legacies/lodges
the new PrC's of wod. go, buy splat books, give WW your money! i've banned alot of it, at least at the start, but there isn't a good way to eliminate it entirely. when used freely these systems return alot of the flaws the nwod tried to get away from... stupid.
3. no direction inherrent in the system
sort of connected to con #1, but different. basically, because there is no monolithic social structure guiding you, and no primary enemy to throw yourself at, you end up just kind of doing nothing unless you set goals for yourself, or the gm is good and takes you someplace. it is, in some ways, alot more work for players and gm's alike. good, and bad.
4. de-powering mechanisms
the pendulum swung too far in nwod. i understand why, but it was just overdone. basically, every system has a way of screwing over powerful characters, whether it's essence bleed, paradox, or torpors that make you forget everything, every creature basically hands in its character sheet at higher levels. which really isn't even necessary to limit power, as power is so much harder to come by in nwod anyway.
5. the 5-of structure and the contrived nature of the metaplot
everything comes in 5's, didn't you know? yes, WW has always had a sort of formula for its critters (split into a few groups, w/a few subgroups, label 'em, give em powers that make each group into a well known stereotype) but the new system is really, really bad. there seriously are 5 tribe/clan/traditions in every book, and when other divisions are introduced, there are 5 of them as well. and the definitions of these divisions are often really generic, formulaic, stereotyped, and contrived. oh, and copied from modern pop culture (not just the last century modern, but more like the last 5 minutes modern, and cut and pasted in; mage could be renamed new age wicca crap 101). the overarching stories for these creatures is so banal, simplified, and trite that it's actually kind of funny. and lame. basically any meaning you want is player/gm driven, and that means, as stated above, more work. boo!
i'm sure there are more things, but these are the ones that really stand out for me. but i too am curious as to what others think.
Threading the Gerbil since 1982
and as far as coils go...
i'm kind of torn. i do agree with the petition. despite the fact that overcoming the banes of vampiric existence should be expensive, there really isn't a good excuse for them even costing as much as a normal discipline actually. the problem is, when you buy a coil, you didn't buy fortitude, potence, dominate, an extra skill dot, composure, etc. you get burned on xp spent, and on xp you can't spend on other, more powerful stuff.
but my intended purpose is to play RAW until the game has progressed somewhat. i don't want a bunch of new rulings. the other rule i don't like is how armor and weapons work (and initiative too actually...). i'd like to change the extra dice, the 8 and 9 again rules on some of them, and things like that. but i decided not to do that either, just to keep it simple. every system will have flaws. the question is, where does one draw the line, and make a cure worse than the disease? when is the game bogged down by errata and homade crap?
i may change it. i'm not sure.
i'm kind of torn. i do agree with the petition. despite the fact that overcoming the banes of vampiric existence should be expensive, there really isn't a good excuse for them even costing as much as a normal discipline actually. the problem is, when you buy a coil, you didn't buy fortitude, potence, dominate, an extra skill dot, composure, etc. you get burned on xp spent, and on xp you can't spend on other, more powerful stuff.
but my intended purpose is to play RAW until the game has progressed somewhat. i don't want a bunch of new rulings. the other rule i don't like is how armor and weapons work (and initiative too actually...). i'd like to change the extra dice, the 8 and 9 again rules on some of them, and things like that. but i decided not to do that either, just to keep it simple. every system will have flaws. the question is, where does one draw the line, and make a cure worse than the disease? when is the game bogged down by errata and homade crap?
i may change it. i'm not sure.
Threading the Gerbil since 1982
well when I had to remake the vampire version of stone (that I played in final knights before the new rules) I ended up losing levels in some disc and lost others (necro, levinbolt, fort)... and a few dots in skills... but I got better and made a mage... ^_^
That which is not dead can eternal lie and with strange eons even death may die
My Color is Blue
I value Knowledge, logic, and deceit. I love to pursue wisdom but also to manipulate and deceive. At my best, I am brilliant and progressive. At my worst, I am treacherous and cold. My symbol is a water droplet. My enemies are green and red.
My Color is Blue
I value Knowledge, logic, and deceit. I love to pursue wisdom but also to manipulate and deceive. At my best, I am brilliant and progressive. At my worst, I am treacherous and cold. My symbol is a water droplet. My enemies are green and red.
you should totally do that... no wolves on the scene as yet
That which is not dead can eternal lie and with strange eons even death may die
My Color is Blue
I value Knowledge, logic, and deceit. I love to pursue wisdom but also to manipulate and deceive. At my best, I am brilliant and progressive. At my worst, I am treacherous and cold. My symbol is a water droplet. My enemies are green and red.
My Color is Blue
I value Knowledge, logic, and deceit. I love to pursue wisdom but also to manipulate and deceive. At my best, I am brilliant and progressive. At my worst, I am treacherous and cold. My symbol is a water droplet. My enemies are green and red.