LostKnightsRPG.org

[Liquidprism]

In light of recent game play it has become fairly self-evident that the Marvel Saga system needs a bit of help in making game play run a bit smoother. For the most part we have been using the revisions made by Cheyne some time ago, but there are several items not addressed by those changes.

These are my thoughts on the matter, and just a rough draft. I am looking for simple, and easy to use (intuitive) rules fixes. IMO no problem should be fixed by adding more than a single card play to an idea, and the fewer modifiers the better.

As it sits, there is a problem with too many card plays being qued up at one time without resolution. At the same time the system presents unclear terminology for certain steps in the action process. Meanwhile, using powers defensively is simply to hard, and makes characters that do so way to reactionary in a system that wants progressive action. Finally, concepts like 'range' are largely undefined (although the Reed Richard's Guide makes great strides in fixing some of this).

Right now I am only going to address the immediate problems I see from actual game play, as it affects the game we are currently playing. Again, these are only suggestions. It's Gid's game and he can do what he wants with it. Anyone should feel free to comment, and present ideas as well. Cheyne will probably add decent ideas to the comprehensive LostKnights revisions (or allow somebody else to do so, lazy bastard ;P).

The subjects I am going to address are: The flow of combat, and 'boosting' intensities. Both these matters are broken as written and need at least some tweaking to make game play enjoyable, and easy to understand.

First I am going to add a small aside about the power scale of this system however. This is largely an unspoken idea that has never been written down. Although some mention is made in the main rule book: I don't remember it being clearly laid out. More importantly these tiers aren't really used mechanically to affect play, but perhaps they should be. Much like edge they can help define the role of a given character within the cosmology, and give an idea of the impact a being can have on he/she/its environment.

TIERS OF POWER
1-10: This is the normal spectrum of humanity, and similar humanoid races. At this level of power creatures tend to be able to interact with their immediate environment. These will be the characters commonly referred to as ‘street level’ heroes for the most part, with a few exceptional characters having intensities above 10 in very specific areas.

11-20: This is the power level of most full-blown ‘super’ heroes. Characters at this level of power tend to be able to interact with things within their range of perception. Intensities within this tier are potent, and can potentially be used to reshape an environment.

21-30: This is the cosmic spectrum of power. Beings with intensities in this range can affect entire worlds, and sometimes more. These entities are not to be casually dealt with. Normal creatures (this will include the vast majority of PCs, and NPC’s) that gain intensities of 21 plus had better be ready to deal with major consequences when using those gifts.

FLOW OF COMBAT
While the theory behind the written system is neat, and seems to be designed to help combat feel comic-like, in practice I have notice it is clunky and hard to follow. There is a lot of book keeping in the declare up, resolve down system. More often than not I have noticed that combat is simply done wrong anyway, so why not design something simple and slightly more intuitive?

The simultaneous nature of the action system as written, is neat, but hard to maintain. It would be really simple, and drastically cut down on the book keeping, if all card plays were made at the time an action was declared. Damage can still be resolved at the end of the round, but any other effects should be dealt with at the time of the action.

The other major problem I have found with this system is that often times characters with low Intellect scores can be denied actions outright, by a high Intellect character doing something that completely circumvents their attempts to act. While this can be argued to be somewhat accurate, it is not conducive to the fun of a game. Having low intellect should have disadvantages, but those disadvantages shouldn’t disqualify a character from participation.

My proposal is as follows:

At the beginning of a round the character with the lowest Intellect score declares his action, and resolves that action up to, and including any damage. Targets of this character’s action may respond accordingly. Damage doesn't resolve until the very end of the round (after contingent actions have been taken). This allows damage to accumulate, and characters to continue to act even if they will later be down for the count.

After the first character acts the character with the next highest Intellect goes, and so on and so fourth. At any point before a character with a lower Intellect has declared an action, any character with a higher Intellect score may choose to act. If two characters with the same Intellect score act at the same time those characters compare Agility scores, and the highest Agility score determines when he wishes to act.

Characters that react multiple times in a round, receive a cumulative minus each time they do so. For each reaction after the first a character receives a -1 to the intensities of his reaction plays. This penalty increases by 1 for each additional reaction taken in a round. So a character that reacts 3 times in a round would take a -1 penalty to his second reaction play, and a -2 to the third.

BOOSTING
This system, or more pointedly these powers, need to be reexamined because the ability to raise base intensities at will can quickly derail plots, and/or cause the rules system in place to simply break down. The Saga system is all about intensities, and how they compare between characters. If one character can raise an intensity (especially Strength) by 10 points more than any other character, that character has a pretty clear advantage. The more versatile the 'boosted' ability or power the more pronounced this divide becomes.

Any power capable of boosting intensity, whether this be for abilities or powers, needs to be limited to prevent breakage. Fortunately, there are only a few of these in the system. Ability Boost, Cosmic Energy Control, and Power Amplification are the only three of which I am aware. These powers should be codified to work roughly the same across the board, and to limit there impact on play, without nerfing them entirely.

Thus I propose the following:

These powers can all be used to raise the designated intensity (referred to hereafter as ‘boosting’) of a target up to the system maximum of 30 if a character has an intensity of 11+ in their ‘boost’ power. Characters with an intensity of less than 10 (street level) in a ‘boost’ power may not raise intensities above 20. This helps further differentiate the tiers of power for these characters. If you think about it, a character with a minor ‘boosting’ power probably wouldn’t be able to affect the Hulk’s cosmic strength score by any appreciable amount.

To help mitigate the impact of these powers on game play a power that ‘boosts’ other intensities may only do so at half the intensity of the ‘boosting’ power (round down). For example the Silver Surfer with a Cosmic Energy control of 20 can Ability Boost up to 10 in a given ability with his power, giving him a 30. A character with
Power Amplification of 14 could raise another character’s power intensity by 7, up to a maximum of 30.

CONSEQUENCES
With the potential to ‘boost’ abilities, and powers well past the limits of mortal beings, there needs to be some system in place to help govern such feats. While this is well within the acceptable range of what characters in comic books are capable of, this sort of action usually comes with a cost to the hero, or villain so bold as to attempt it.

Because most normal beings are not designed to channel cosmic scale power, doing so has the potential to cause them serious harm, and there is always the risk of losing control. Whenever a character uses a power or ability with an intensity of 21+ that character must succeed at a Daunting Willpower play. If Willpower is the ability being ‘boosted’ a character uses his normal Willpower score for the play to maintain control.

For example a character with Electricity Control 15 has his power intensity boosted by an ally with Power Amplification 15 to the maximum allowed limit, which would be 22 (Power Amplification divided by 2 rounded down is 7). If he then uses his electricity control of 22, he would need to make a ‘Daunting’ Willpower play (16). If the play fails the hero, and everything nearby takes the damage from his play. The hero may not reduce this damage with defense. If the power in question is not one that would normally cause damage, then the storyteller should create appropriate negative consequences. As you can see this makes using such power risky at the best of times.

Okay, so thats it for now. Let me know what you guys think.

[Liquidprism]

MULTIPLE TARGETS

Being able to hit several targets with a single action is not outside the purview of a superhero, however the system as written only vaguely deals with this. It basically states that as long as two or more targets are next to each other a character may take an action to affect them all at the same time, however those targets then get a bonus when attacking back (called a team up bonus). This also works in reverse, should several targets team up on a character that character may take a single action to attack them all.

While not terrible I think there is probably a better way to do this. My proposal is as follows:

Whenever a character takes an action that character may attack more than one target at a time. Each target being affected by the action adds their Edge to the base difficulty of the action (before any defensive plays made). Characters with an edge of 0 still add a modifier of at least 1 to the difficulty. If the action is successful, resolve its affects against each target separately (this includes those targets reaction plays).

Several characters may take action against a single character, this is called a ‘gang up’. The same skill, or powers using the same skill, must be used by all the characters involved in the ‘gang up’. If a group of characters does this they each add +1 to their action scores for each character involved in the team up. Characters with an edge of 0 may only do this if a character of edge 1 or higher and the Leadership skill is directing them to do so. That character may only direct a number of edge 0 characters equal to edge plus 2 (or his hand size). The leader need not spend an entire action directing a group, but he does need to be able to clearly relay orders as at least a part of his action in the round. A ‘gang up’ action counts only as a single action for purposes of incurring a reaction penalty.

USING POWERS REACTIVELY

In the rules a character must forgo taking actions in order to activate powers defensively. There are exceptions to this (such as powers that add Resistance to a defense, or Forcefields that stay up until dropped, etc). Overall this rule not only hampers the idea of a proactive fight progression, but also largely gets ignored.

Thus, my proposal is as follows:

A character may use an appropriate power (or stunt of a power) when making a reaction. Powers used in this way are done so at plus 1 level of difficulty than normal. Ultimately, it’s the storyteller’s call as to whether a power can be used in this way, but storytellers should be liberal in their allowances.

[rydi]

I added the boosting stuff, dealt with the reaction stuff mostly as you suggested though I stated that some activations required actions for the turn, based on what the power descriptions and end result were.

I added in some of the combat mods as optional rules, though i'm not sure on the multiple targets rule. there is a 'Move through' rule on pg 72 of the rrgte that allows for multiple attacks, as do several powers and skills. i may still add this in, but I wasn't sure you were aware of the others. Another thing to consider is that the extra attack stuff usually gives an even heftier penalty than the one levied here (when I suggested it I hadn't read those in ages): basically the character divides all pre-cardplay mods and then plays cards. Any multi action rule should use this, and i do make a reference to this in Actions.

I added an optional rule that gets rid of contingent step and just resolves everyting on the characters turn. I added initiative order, basically as you said it, though I wasn't sure how to combine that with your reactions (which has the potential to be funky). I added a one card resolution optional, to reduce time on card play. I probably did some other stuff, but i don't remember.

[Liquidprism]

If there are already rules, thats cool. I mainly wanted to hit on things that I couldnt find clear rules for, or that were just broken as written. I will read through the Reed Richards Guide. It does have quiet a few fixes for things.

I personally concider hitting multiple targets with a single action different than making several actions. I suppose tempo wise they are mostly similar, but the plays themselves are different. I know that the main rule book, talks about attacking multiple targets, as long as all those targets attack you at the same time. It was kind of vague though, and I wanted to maybe clear that up.

I personallt like my Initiative system. I think it works well, and dont really forsee any problems with the way it works and reactions. If you see something I dont please let me know what it is. It works fine in my head, but probably needs to be tested.

[rydi]

you can read the stuff i posted in the optional area under combat. get back to me. I'm interested in some of the rules listed on the site i posted over in 'other games', and you might take a look at them too.