LostKnightsRPG.org

[rydi]

http://bechdel.nullium.net/

[angelicyokai]

I'm not sure how I feel about this. The movies that score the highest are the ones I don't want to see.

[Liquidprism]

What's the point...

[rydi]

the point is that in stories, women are most often only there to forward the male protagonists. They don't have any life outside the male to which they are connected. There often is only a single female lead, and when there are more than a single female character, often the only way they interact is fight over or otherwise discuss the male(s).

Contrasts the rules linked above with the same rules but applied to males, and you see the majority of films/books/tv will apply. Why is this, is it appropriate, and what to do about it? How does it influence culture? As people with eventual goals to write, shouldn't we be aware of this and perhaps create more realistic depictions of females, rather than just having them be objects?

[Liquidprism]

We objectify, and idealize everything else, so why should this be any different? Its hard to change cultural ideas, and traditions. I guess bringing it to peoples attention is a step forward cause it means at least a few individuals recognize the trend that may or may not be problematic. Over all it seems like little more than an intellectual diversion, which points out an obscure trend in the movie industry. I say obscure because very few individuals recognize, or even understand it. Movies are a huge clusterfuck of money and politics. Independent minds, have been at war with the major production studios since their inception. This site just seems kind of insignificant, and way too specific to matter (at least as far as getting movies to change). There are, in my opinion, much broader topics, which are worth fighting the movie industry over. I have no idea why have spent this much dialogue on this thread, discussing this stuff, I must really be really bored. Im out.

[rydi]

i disagree that it is insignificant, first b/c it is so prevalent (not just in movies, but in many other types of fiction), and second b/c it is actually a pretty big deal. Women are objects in the eyes of society; this is not a small thing, and not something we should just accept unconsciously b/c its "the way things are".

As far as the site goes, it's mainly the rules that count, the different movies they list is less important. It's the trend pointed out by the rules, that women are unimportant as individuals, that is important.

Oh, and I also disagree that it should be lumped into the category of "other things wrong with movies". There are some other social issues with minorities, or teaching the wrong ideas, but these are imo a lot more important than most of the other complaints lodged against the film industry.

[Liquidprism]

I suppose it depends on what your trying to get accomplished. Attacking movies for there display of social norms, especially those which exist seemingly in the unconscious of the masses, is meaningless. it wont solve the problem. The reason I say this is because I see movies/literature etc. as symptomatic of the issues themselves. They may perpetuate the ideas, but they are not the cause. Thus to me is more appropriate to go after movies as a forum for art/entertainment, and the relevant issues to that end, not as if they were a vehicle for larger problems.

I will say that the fact that such things exist in art, should convey to the masses that these problems are there. But, ultimately the masses are stupid and sheep like. they don't understand the underlying problems, and as far as I can tell they are resistant to being made to understand. Thus, I come back to seeing the sight, and its 'point' as little more than a mildly interesting social experiment. Damn you Cheyne, I thought I was done here.

[rydi]

The problem is, the media is not just a symptom, but rather part of a feedback loop. What we see and hear effects us, shapes our unconscious and even conscious perceptions of the world, and reinforces ideas. And that in turn creates the next round of media.

Also, I again must say I don't think it's pointless to point out things that are wrong with our way of life. For anything to change, people have to stand up and say "look at that, that's fucked up." If no one did that, we would never have had the civil rights movement, or the women's rights movement. Yes, it is a little thing, but it makes people conscious of the idea... The Bechdel? Bechnel? whatever the test name is, has become famous enough to be spread around to multiple websites, and to be known in feminist circles, even though it just popped up in a comic one time. Google it, and you get a bunch of hits, not just that single website. Things can change, it just takes time/effort, and it doesn't always happen the way people think it will, but the only way to ensure that change never occurs is to do nothing.

Oh, and one last reason I consider it important to note stuff like this, is because change has to happen inside ourselves. Like the objectification of women for example: one has to become conscious of it, and take offense at it, before anything else can happen. As long as people just hang back and watch their movies with no concern for the ramifications of them, the people making them aren't going to care.

And finally, personally I like modern stories better than pre-feminist era stories where women were helpless wilting flowers. I'm hoping that eventually that can be purged entirely some day, and we can have movies about competent womens.

[angelicyokai]

Hear hear! We're slowly progressing I think. I do think though that we progress technologically far faster than ethically, so we have had propaganda shoved in our faces for a few decades without being able to address it. I agree that ignoring the situation won't help, and that stuff like Bechnel will help. I am hoping for a time when things that get a high rating for Bechnel, and things that kick a lot of ass, will be in perfect harmony.

[Liquidprism]

Yes, but if you haven't noticed even today, the civil rights movement and other causes like it are still fighting for progress. Women are still second class citizens. Black people are still profiled. Whitey is still 'The Man'. People are slow to change, and usually at least one person has to die, to make any kind of real statement. Im not saying that I think these things are right, just that it takes more than social commentary to change them.

[Amseriah]

Yes, but they won't even begin to change if no one stands up and says, "this is fucked up".

[Liquidprism]

Okay, they've stood up and said, "hey, this is fucked up."... so now what? Im not actually sure where this is going, but its kind of amusing to argue.

[arete]

Good news in one of those wonderfully forward thinking middle eastern countries a judge ruled it was ok to beat your wife especially if she is needlessly spends money. He also stated in his ruling that women are just as much to blame as the men for the cause of domestic violence. The men of the world can rest a little easier knowing oppression is still going on somewhere.

[Liquidprism]

That's special. People suck.

[angelicyokai]

There was an article from the King of Saudi Arabia denouncing said judge as a backwards thinking retard, but that could just be for good international press too.