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GurpForge: OC: Discussion
Posted: Tue Apr 01, 2008 6:03 pm
by Rusty
We can explore our ideas here. What are people interested in playing? Just about anything can be done in GURPS. though charging a stallion into battle is weird choice, you can make that choice if you like. (I'd recommend a robo-horse and a laser lance but whatever).
Posted: Tue Apr 01, 2008 6:35 pm
by Rusty
I think I'm going to forbid any powers or technology or any ability of any kind that allows time travel. It takes the game in a wholly different direction. Unless...unless you guys want to go there. If you want to deal with the massive complexity that is time travel powers and tech, then we can go there. But unless EVERYONE PLAYING wants to do it, then we won't. It makes things...weird. But could be fun!
Also long range teleportation should be impossible by any means available to the player character party. short range is fine, matter transporters can do that in TL10, I think.
You will be designing your own powers for the most part. Please keep track of point expenditures and things of that sort. If someone or me asks you to verify that you can have ALL those powers, please be prepared to prove that you can. I would never assume that my friends would cheat or fudge, but it's not impossible for them to do bad math. Check your work, please. OH, and make sure before you install a magic item in your power armor that you have the necessary advantages and skills to both have it and use it.
Posted: Tue Apr 01, 2008 8:21 pm
by rydi
time travel should be a gm tool only.
Posted: Tue Apr 01, 2008 9:17 pm
by Rusty
rydi wrote:time travel should be a gm tool only.
Then that settles it. There won't be 'at will' time travel. I may give you a piece of technology or a spell that allows for 'voluntary' time travel, but it would be dependent on circumstances. The more I think about it, the more this sounds like a cool problem solving option. Suppose you encounter a race that is very hostile and more powerful than you are, and is likely to attack the federation. But, the temporal energy baseline is such that your time machine portal will work here, so you go back in time and interfere with the race in some way in their history, such that they no longer pose a threat.
Also the "omega 13" could be really cool to play with, to redo 13 seconds (13 rounds of combat) once in a long while. So, I'll consider including time travel in a GM only way, that might enrich the overall game. Probably won't be going into the future at any point, it would be going into the past and coming back.
Posted: Tue Apr 01, 2008 10:48 pm
by Avilister
So, as far as character goes, I'm sort of looking at the up-and-comming first mate who's cocky about his abilities and actually has the skill to back most of that up. He'll be brash, but not hot-headed and deeply enjoy his job. He'd probably be a bit on the young side for his rank, which would contribute to his ego. Sort of a Season 1/2 Will Riker, but with a better outfit.
He's good natured and likes to befriend most of the people he works with, but is able to slip into no-nonsense 'command mode' when the shit hits the fan.
That is, assuming that the player characters make up the command crew on the ship. If not, I can come up with something else. This is loosely based on a character I'd started making for another game a long time ago that I never got to play.
This character was original envisioned in a no-magic low-psi environment, so I'd have to put some thought into any sort of extraordinary capabilities he might have.
Posted: Tue Apr 01, 2008 11:04 pm
by Rusty
Avilister wrote:So, as far as character goes, I'm sort of looking at the up-and-comming first mate who's cocky about his abilities and actually has the skill to back most of that up. He'll be brash, but not hot-headed and deeply enjoy his job. He'd probably be a bit on the young side for his rank, which would contribute to his ego. Sort of a Season 1/2 Will Riker, but with a better outfit.
He's good natured and likes to befriend most of the people he works with, but is able to slip into no-nonsense 'command mode' when the shit hits the fan.
That is, assuming that the player characters make up the command crew on the ship. If not, I can come up with something else. This is loosely based on a character I'd started making for another game a long time ago that I never got to play.
This character was original envisioned in a no-magic low-psi environment, so I'd have to put some thought into any sort of extraordinary capabilities he might have.
The characters are in fact the command crew. And perhaps a lot of the time will be the only people around. It looks like at our tech level there will be a crew operating things, unless you guys buy robots. The basic premise is that your party are ambassadors of the GF, though if you'd rather be a seasoned space hand that is coming along to make sure things run smoothly then that's fine by me. I found that a hierarchy amongst players caused a lot of strife in starforge, so I'd like to avoid it for now. Unless you guys can name someone that's going to play and everyone wants them to be 'in command'. 'Sign' is the name of the 'intelligent computer' that will basically be an NPC. I may actually dispose of the idea entirely. I don't feel the need to rescue the players from themselves. If you can't decide what to do then sit there in space and die.
You don't have to have powers of any kind, and in fact by not buying powers you'll free up a lot of points to be spent on skills, which may make up for that lack. You might buy a good advantage or something and get yourself a powerful TL11 weapon that equals someone elses mind blast, or exceeds it. I haven't examined these game settings for balance, I sorta trust SJ games to do that for me. One thing I discovered is that most supers games start at 300 points, so a starting super in this game will be behind the curve somewhat, but may over time exceed what others have.
I like your character, and it's definitely in the feel of the game.
Posted: Wed Apr 02, 2008 1:10 pm
by Rusty
BTW, from what I've read, to make a magic attack spell useful against a spaceship or vehicle you should cast 'penetrating spell' at a high enough level to ignore DR, and then charge the spell to max. A lightning spell is probably most effective against machines. I may redo my ruling about mana levels in space, there seems to be a sunlight element in magery, so I think we can safely say that space, in general, is normal mana, but the umbra or penumbra of a planet is mana poor. Within atmosphere, variations can occur and will be planet wide, for the most part. Besides, i really like the idea of a mage on the outside of a ship shooting lightning bolts at passing fighters.
also, the mage could do buffs on allied fighters and crewmembers. this game could get really wacky really fast.
Posted: Thu Apr 03, 2008 2:25 pm
by rydi
from the faq:
3.2.21 How do Immunity to Metabolism Hazards and Temperature Tolerance relate to each other when dealing with heat and cold?
When talking about heat and cold, there are three *different* effects to consider:
"Doesn't suffer FP or HP loss due to hypothermia or hyperthermia, which are forms of system failure tied to having a metabolism."
"Doesn't suffer from the negative effects of ambient heat and cold on the material structure; e.g., freezing solid, melting, and catching fire."
"Doesn't suffer damage from directed heat and cold attacks."
Immunity to Metabolic Hazards provides (1). Temperature Tolerance gives a degree of protection against (2) and, if you have a metabolism, some protection against (1), too - that's why Temperature Tolerance states, "such as FP or HP loss," and not, "that is, FP or HP loss." Only Damage Resistance offers (3).
The problem is that the rules give few cases of (2). There's the fact that Temperature Tolerance sets a "burning threshold" under the intense heat rules (p. B434) and that's about it. There should be similar rules for freezing solid and for melting, and even for being vaporized, but there aren't. The point is, these things aren't metabolic effects or attacks.
The answer, then, is that to avoid melting, catching fire, or freezing solid, you need a lot of Temperature Tolerance. Without it, all these things can happen to you even if Immunity to Metabolic Hazards protects you completely from hypothermia or hyperthermia. Immunity to Metabolic Hazards only protects against the systemic effects of hypothermia or hyperthermia - not against your body's structure failing in extreme cold or heat. And neither trait protects against directed cold or heat attacks; those call for DR.
As for machines, they have "freezing up" and "overheating" thresholds related to materials properties - a variation on (2), above. Having Immunity to Metabolic Hazards means that they don't suffer hypothermia and hyperthermia, which are tied to metabolism. It doesn't mean that heat and cold have no effect at all. That's why machines might still have Temperature Tolerance.
this is, as we like to say in psychology, re-tard-ed.
three different powers to resist one effect? wtf...
Posted: Thu Apr 03, 2008 2:50 pm
by Thael
by their description I would think that DR protection vs hot or cold would also prevent any other affect
if you cannot be damged by a particular temp then why would you suffer a metabolic response like hypothermia when it is within your bodies tolerance range... like a sunny day or brisk evening... those do not harm us... but a winter blizzard or high noon in the desert are more intense and outside out ability to tolerate the conditions... hence our bodies react with attempts to deal with the excess (shivers to warm up, sweating to cool off)
Same goes for freezing solid/catching on fire/melting... if the energy to melt/fry/burn you is less than your resistance why should those affects bother you... if the intensity is increased beyond your ability to cope then you suffer ill effects, like the difference between a candle and a flame thrower... same energy, different intensity... one we handle one we dont...
Now some of the items they mentioned are like stepping stones in resistance... no metabolism means you dont have a resistance to conditions that is lower than the material you are composed of..., this would mean that until your materials take damage then you do not suffer any ill effects... a machine can suffer this if its electronics cannot perform in the temperture but do not actually get damaged by it, they would work again once the conditions were restored to within tolerance... undead would be an example of a biological object that functions without metabolism and could work in the desert without problems until he suffered enough heat sufficient to damage his tissues (like a laser rifle or bonfire)
so it would work like No metabolism would be level 1 resistance and made obsolete by a greater resistance rating to negative effects (freezing/melting) and then it would be made obsolete by a greater DR rating to same...
Posted: Thu Apr 03, 2008 3:10 pm
by rydi
i would agree with you, and i think it should work that way probably, but they seem to disagree, even though at the same time they seem to not like the RAW themselves.
Posted: Thu Apr 03, 2008 3:26 pm
by Thael
I would have to read the relevant portions to see how it was written... but dont worry it is not as bad as robots who have to buy a body and AI software in addition to skills and etc..
Posted: Thu Apr 03, 2008 3:36 pm
by Rusty
I'm not sure what to do about this, but it's definitely broken. I'd hate to start rolling out patches before learning the game system, but it looks like that is necessary here.
there should be a power that protects you from ALL the rigors of space.
Vacuum support is a good place to start. I think that temperature tolerance should be restricted to variations in atmosphere, especially since the temperature in space is paradoxically both hot and cold, due to the technicality in the definition of temperature.
Water freezes immediately in space, hence it is cold.
What molecules there are in space have a huge amount of energy and move very fast, satisfying the definition of temperature for hot.
Vacuum support is now Space Support. it costs more, not sure how much more. You still need "doesn't breathe" and a way to move around.
since a vac suit is really cheap, I don't see this as a problem. A character could, without spending character points, just simply wear a sealed vac suit at all times. At TL10 or 11 he would also have a nearly unlimited air supply, or at least one long enough to last a good while.
So, allowing a power, at the expenditure of points, to substitute for a vacsuit should be rather cheap. Adding in "doesn't breathe" alone makes a vacsuit a permanent solution. You may also want "doesn't sleep" and "doesn't eat" to make it better, but the bottom line is that those powers make a vacsuit a permanent solution to having to buy a bunch of abilities to handle the rigors of space. So adding a cost of 10 points to vacuum support to allow for space survival is perfectly fine by me.
Posted: Thu Apr 03, 2008 3:38 pm
by rydi
i'm fine w/that, though i'm on the gurps boards now, and am asking some questions. maybe they'll have some sollutions.
Posted: Thu Apr 03, 2008 10:20 pm
by Avilister
We were just here discussing super strength and how it relates to flight from a physics point of view.
My opinion, which several people wanted me to repeat here, is something like this:
It would be retarded to require that someone's flight ability be required to counteract their super strength.
Example: I am a 5 Billion point character. I spend essentially all of my points on super strength and 5 on flight. An arbitrarily large and massive sphere of metal is orbiting a star. It needs to go into the star so I can destroy it. I fucking punch it as hard as I can. Physics says I now exit the solar system at nearly the speed of light. Comic books say that the evil sphere hurdles towards the sun until it is destroyed in the middle of the nuclear furnace.
Posted: Thu Apr 03, 2008 10:43 pm
by Rusty
Avilister wrote:We were just here discussing super strength and how it relates to flight from a physics point of view.
My opinion, which several people wanted me to repeat here, is something like this:
It would be retarded to require that someone's flight ability be required to counteract their super strength.
Example: I am a 5 Billion point character. I spend essentially all of my points on super strength and 5 on flight. An arbitrarily large and massive sphere of metal is orbiting a star. It needs to go into the star so I can destroy it. I fucking punch it as hard as I can. Physics says I now exit the solar system at nearly the speed of light. Comic books say that the evil sphere hurdles towards the sun until it is destroyed in the middle of the nuclear furnace.
Well, I recall that some comic book characters make huge jumps by hitting the ground. Also, though we have super powers (or permission to buy them) this is really a pulp sci fi setting rather than a comic book setting. I do see what you are saying, but I think for purposes of making sense consistently we should have precisely one physics working. Suppose cheyne has super strength but no flight, or little flight. If we mix comic book physics with real physics, and the space combat does use some real physics, then he can tether himself to the ship with a five yard rope, and punch the ship as hard as he can, and it will pull him along as it accelerates intensely. However, if we give a normal physics and observe his abnormally large but still governed by reality powers, then he could push the ship with his flight power which is an accelerating force and this would over time start the ship moving, and eventually bring it to an appreciable speed, but punching it would send him away from it.
To use his full punch on a ship, he needs to accelerate towards it such that his velocity and force is similar to that of his strike. We can figure out a number at some point. We could even say that he can punch through a shield and pass through it if his punch damage exceeds the DR. Rending metal is probably best for breaking into a ship, as this is using force against force.
I had considered using the inertialess drive, which makes punches in general useless, but I'd rather use a warp of some kind. I'll keep you posted on that as it develops.