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durden · Post by **durden** » Fri Aug 08, 2008 8:45 pm

This is the type of apathy I am working to reverse in our youth. Civil Rights in the 1960's was a youth movement. Now, we've all but given up on many issues. Less young vote now, despite the increase in info and opportunity.

Liquidprism · Post by **Liquidprism** » Fri Aug 08, 2008 9:02 pm

What info/programs are you using to try and get them involved?

And as I said am not truly apathetic, I just choose not to act because I believe, based on my experiences, that certain action is in fact pointless.

durden · Post by **durden** » Fri Aug 08, 2008 9:39 pm

So...defeatist?

Liquidprism · Post by **Liquidprism** » Fri Aug 08, 2008 9:58 pm

More like pessimist.

And if you can find a solution by all means expound, I would love to hear it. The problem is that there hasn't been a great solution proposed.

durden · Post by **durden** » Sat Aug 09, 2008 1:16 am

Reminds me of a George Bernard Shaw quote.
"Do you know what a pessimist is? A man who thinks everybody is as nasty as himself, and hates them for it."

Liquidprism · Post by **Liquidprism** » Sat Aug 09, 2008 3:34 am

One could also see my point of view as simply being a realist one. I have yet to talk with anybody that can give me a reason why my beliefs are unwarranted. I also have yet to meet anyone with a good solution to any of the problems in this country . Simply tellng people that they should vote, because it makes a diffrence doesn't make it true.

The way the system is set up, with data being coalated from all these diffirent districts, each one using diffirent systems, and rules. Then allowing candidates to demand revotes, and states to exclude votes made under certain conditions. Plus the practice of using an electorial college, and the rules that apply there. Its all not only confusing and hard to follow, but it indicates a system just waiting to be tampered with by individuals.

Don't forget the lobbyists, yay for a government controlled by big buisness. Then theres the media networks that control the data an American public views daily. A very corporate media with the objectives and goals of its owners in mind. By the way all of these owners and cooporate big wigs are buddies, and have intricates webs of relationships which date back for generations.

If you want literature, read up on Noem Chompsky, that man is a genius, and he is very anti-our political system. Unfortunatly, as I said before I have been staying out of politics for a while so I don't know of anything to current, but I seriously doubt the nature of the American political machine has changed much.

If this all seems a bit off topic I am sorry, but voting, and casting a ballot is all tied up in this mess. My point is that voting is a limited system designed to give people the illusion of control. So what's the point? I don't like games, and I don't like being controlled. Unfortunately, these are things we all have to put up with no matter where we are. However, I can choose to not take part in some of it, so I a do. It saves me effort, and time, and worry.

Untill the system itself is made to change we're all kind of stuck with a sucky government. Whats wierd is that the facts and literature are out there to show people all this shit, but guess what...there aren't enough people reading it, and even when some one does stand up, they have to face not only a government influenced by big buisness, but those corporate empires and teams of lawyers as well. The rest of the people just kind of ignore/disbelieve it, because it doesn't jive with what they've been told, and it causes them to much dissonance to consider

Chris if you can teach your kids that they live in a messed up country and that they should take action to change it, then good for you. Be careful though, you live in Oklahoma and their parents, 'might not take to kindly to some teacher fillin their childs head with all that liberal crap.'

As for me untill people are ready for the system to change, I don't belive it will, and thus it is pointless to involve myself with it. Its like punching a brick wall, and hoping that you might make a dent.

I think that in my case its fair to say that I think people are actually 'nastier' than myself, and so I hate them for it. I don't know if this is pessimism or not, but it means that the government never amazes or suprises me with anything it does.

durden · Post by **durden** » Sat Aug 09, 2008 12:49 pm

I hardly tell my kiddos that voting alone will fix it. It is just a simple, easy step in the process. Takes like five minutes and helps create a record of diversity of opinion and makes it that much harder for those in power to steal the vote.

Otherwise, it is all about service and civic responsibility. Don't bitch about things if you are unwilling and unable to do anything. My classes this year are going to have a service component built in. Even my bowling team will work with the Special Olympics as volunteers, coaches, and judges. Just little things we can do for others. In a couple of months they'll build a house for Habitat. The easiest thing we can do though is be informed and understanding. Easy for those like you and me, being intelligent and capable individuals. You sent a vote for that sexual abuse link Cheyne posted. That was civic responsibility. Things like that.

Liquidprism · Post by **Liquidprism** » Sat Aug 09, 2008 6:04 pm

You know its weird, I am looking at your lists of projects and thinking to myself the way each of them directly impacts the community. Building houses, helping the less fortunate, and all that humanitarian good will have a dramatic affect on people lives. At the same time another part of me is wandering how voting is the same thing? Perhaps I have become so jaded, and pessimistic toward our political process that I just can't see it, I don't know.

I think that incorporating these things into your program are great, and if you want to have the younger generations out there voting, then go for it, it can't hurt anything. For me however, I just see voting as attacking a symptom of a problem. I don't understand how creating a record of opinion wll make it harder for those in power to steal a vote. I will use Florida in the first Bush election as my example. The popular vote said one thing, it was retallied multiple times, numbers were changed, and even revoting was employed intill a different result was esablished.

I just don't understand how in the face of such a flagrant abuse of the voters rights , it is my bad for saying that voting is pointless, especially since history gives me a reason validate the opinion.

I want voting to be a clean process, cut and dry, and a uniform system nation wide. I've written congressmen, and senators, and signed petitions in my political science classes. I have watched men like Noam Chompsky, and even the fanatical Michael Moore speaking out against our electoral process for years. They get national coverage and have done more than anyone to fight these problems (I've given my support to at least one of Chompskys initiatives as well). Yet what has it gotten them? Michael Moore is a social pariah, and no one knows who Noam Chompsky is.

All I'm saying is that believing in the voting process as it now sits is a waste of time. Helping your community is good. Showing kids that they can make a dfference and allowing them to do so also good. Perhaps as the years pass and a more open minded generation comes into power, then things will change. When that happens and I feel my voice can make a difference in an election, then I will care again.

durden · Post by **durden** » Sat Aug 09, 2008 6:22 pm

MY real point is, voting is the LEAST you can do. You could attempt to effect the change you are looking for by writing up petitions for others to sign, campaigning for a smaller office (you and I do qualify for some), picketing, volunteering for politicians you support (we really need a guy like Andrew Rice in the Senate - I have him speaking at my school soon), fund raising, writing politicians and keeping records to publish, blogging, editorializing in the local papers, keeping yourself and others informed on issues (particularly, the election policies we maintain and the stupid idea that is the electoral college), and more I'm sure I'm not clever to consider. Voting doesn't hurt you and gets you a neat I Voted sticker to prove you care about democracy.

Post by **rydi** » Sun Aug 10, 2008 12:36 am

Yet what has it gotten them? Michael Moore is a social pariah, and no one knows who Noam Chompsky is.

I know. and most liberal arts... well, alot of liberal arts people know. the public doesn't know him as well though.

Rusty · Post by **Rusty** » Sun Aug 10, 2008 8:50 pm

Perhaps voting in a presidential election in Oklahoma, and not voting for the republican candidate, is like driving to your local voting station and spending time without effect. However, voting in local elections CAN make a huge difference.

After the mayoral elections, I dug up stats and did some math.

The "majority" of votes that Mick Cornett received actually only amounted to 36% of registered voters in oklahoma city. In that election, votes really mattered, because the number of total voters was smaller. The mayor of oklahoma city, and the governor of oklahoma, both make decisions that can impact our daily lives. Local elections are really, really important, and these are where the individual voter has real power.

On a national scale, even if the popular vote were used to determine the winner, an individual voice out of millions is almost silent, but the principle would be more valuable. As our presidential electoral process stands, voting is next to worthless, except in the handful of states which have large numbers of electoral votes and are likely to be borderline. Which means the election is determined by a priveledged minority, whose priveledge extends from the abstraction of voting counties and local populations.

the system, as it stands, is broken. But for the local elections, where things like roads and schools, gambling and booze, are more closely governed are more important.

Post by **Avilister** » Sun Aug 10, 2008 8:58 pm

rydi wrote:
Yet what has it gotten them? Michael Moore is a social pariah, and no one knows who Noam Chompsky is.
I know. and most liberal arts... well, alot of liberal arts people know. the public doesn't know him as well though.

Computer Scientists know!

We have to study language construction :P

Post by **rydi** » Sun Aug 10, 2008 10:01 pm

ah, true. though chomsky isn't still in the lead for language theory anymore i don't think. been a while since i had language and the mind though.

lol. i love the interweb. meaningless tangents form the bulk of conversation.

Liquidprism · Post by **Liquidprism** » Mon Aug 11, 2008 12:21 am

Okay, I'll buy that voting in local elections and signing petitions to achieve local goals can matter. State goverments, especially when broken down by city, and district and all that, are small enough and their systems aren't so convoluted. Thus it makes sense that local movements can benefit from individual votes and small followings. This also means its easier for a single individual to influence enough supporters with a smaller amount of leg work. [/i]