The time has come!
I will be running Rise of the Runelords for a select group of dedicated and determined players who are wanting to play through this module of modules.
So on a serious note, character creation. Normal class rules, starting at level 1 and 25 point buy for attributes. Players can select any classes from Paizo Pathfinder Books and the Pathfinder approved Psionic books. Any races not from the core rulebook are subject to approval by GM.
As far as I know the following is what players are looking at:
Adam: Magus (A variant that i can't remember)
Angela: Cleric (not set in stone)
Gideon: Unknown (expressed interest in Sorcerer and Inquisitor)
Steven: Soulknife or Psionic Warrior
I am making a cleric (cloistered and mercy healer) to act as a healer as necessary. He will likely not have good combat abilities.
If you are interested in playing this game and are not listed above, please let me know.
Ask any questions here.
Moderator: adam
Hey everybody,
I'm super excited about this, as most of you know, and I've been working on several character concepts for most of the summer. I have some advice, and some questions for Zach.
Angela: I found the Mendevian Priest in Inner Sea Magic which you might find interesting for your cleric. It calls upon themes I've seen you play before, and so might provide an easy way for you to relate to the setting. A little background first.
The most important thing to know about the setting of Golarion revolves around the god Aroden, the Starstone, and the Age of Lost Omens. Here's the cliffnotes.
The earliest recorded event with a definite date was Earthfall. This was the cataclysm in which an artifact of immense power called the Starstone fell from the sky, created the inner sea region, and cast the world into a thousand year period of darkness. This may have happened at the behest of the Aboleth, who opposed the rival human empires of Azlant and Thassilon, which will both be important in the game. The date given to Earthfall is -5293. Yeah, minus. Skip ahead 5293 years, and the human hero Aroden raises the Starstone from the bottom of the inner sea, founds the city of Absolom, and becomes a living god. This marks year 1 of the Age of Enthronement. The Starstone is still in Absolom, and is protected by a labyrinth adventurers are free to attempt to navigate and perish in. To date, only Iomedae, Norgerber, and Cayden Cailean have passed the Test of the Starstone. All of them also became living gods.
Skipping ahead to the most important parts. Cheliax was the empire that carried Aroden's light into the world and spread far and wide. Year 4606 was prophesied to herald the return of Aroden to Cheliax, where he would lead his people to a new golden age. Instead he died. All of his clerics lost the ability to cast spells, he no longer responded to prayer, and since then no prophesies have come true. This is the Age of Lost Omens. In the void left by Aroden's death, Cheliax underwent a mad scramble of various groups seeking power. The House of Thrune, diabolists, took power. Cheliax crumbled and fragmented, several wars happened, it's now a much smaller state and is openly diabolist. That means they openly traffick with devils.
At the time of Aroden's death, two other things happened of great importance. The world wound opened. This was a direct portal to the abyss, where demons continue to pour out to this day. Mendev is a country that partially contains the worldwound, and is the focus of the Mendevian Crusades, in which people of high and low character alike seek retribution against the demonic hordes.
Also, the Eye of Abendego formed, a perpetual maelstrom which has never been successfully navigated.
The date of the Inner Sea World Guide is 4711, and I think this lines up with Rise of the Runelords. So it's been just over a hundred years since Aroden died, and the world has settled down somewhat. There's an enormous amount of history in the ISWG, and it's a great read, however, that's some of the background to explain the backdrop of the game. (After RotRL, it might be possible to play Wrath of the Righteous, which involves Mythic tiers and taking on the Worldwound.) Elves, Dwarves, and older Gnomes might remember the chaos of the fall of Aroden. Humans and half-orcs and others probably heard about it. Most of the church of Aroden shifted to worship of Iomedae, who was an ally of his and has taken up his mantle.
So, back to Angela's cleric. This cleric variant is an archetype which, unfortunately gives up one domain choice, but is otherwise fairly neat. It relates to Mendev and the perpetual battle against demonic incursion there. The worldwound is a horrific place where the material plane and the abyss overlap. They say that anything growing there is toxic, and merely drinking the water can slay a man.
On to questions for Zach:
Factions, Magic Schools, and shit: In several books there are various factions the player can join which contributed to the final rules for reputation that appeared in Ultimate Campaign. I have a proposal to do with these.
Each of the books, Faction Guide, Inner Sea Magic, Guide to the Pathfinder Society, and Ultimate Campaign provide a slightly different set of rules and open the world up a bit more. Faction Guide has lots of great ways to tie a character into the setting, Inner Sea Magic has arcane schools, and important for everyone, rules for religions to belong to, and UC has the basic reputation stuff. Pathfinder Society sources list factions within the Pathfinder Society, which provide for some more interesting interplay for Pathfinder Society play.
It is intimated in several of the books that a character could belong to several factions, depending on if they have conflicting interests or not.
Religion is an important part of the setting, and given the Empyreal dedication feat and it's interesting potential, in Chronicle of the Righteous, which more accurately reflects the tendency of Catholics to revere a specific saint in addition to their God, in exchange for a feat and ritual dedications. Belonging to a monastery basically represents having an active religious life and giving two shits about your deity, in exchange for membership fees and gives the option to perform rituals and if you do good works for the religion in question you can progress and gain access to higher rituals and more powerful boons.
Here's the proposal: Characters can get involved with these factions, but can only "cash in" an adventure or deed with one faction at a time. I could benefit with the Church of Iomedae for slaying a demon, or I could publish it with the Pathfinder Society, but not both.
Alternately, an action promotes the relationship the character has with each faction that would care about it. This would mean that an action of forgiveness and clemency could promote a relationship with the church of Ioemedae and the Pathfinder Society, but might harm a relationship with the Szarni. This is more complicated, and could lead to escalating boons that almost seem powerful.
Finally, up to the total of: one arcane school, one religious order, one secret society, one guild, one faction from Faction Guide, the Pathfinder Society, one faction from the Pathfinder Society, and one version of the faction rules from Ultimate Campaign could be combined, and one prestige point/score tracked. This puts the burden of combination on the player, which is really keeping track of what the different factions care about, and what the boons are for the different expenditures. It would not be as complicated as it sounds. Essentially, you would track your score from UC, and could spend it on the lists for all your chosen factions.
Integrating players with the campaign setting is important to me because this is an opportunity to play in one of the most richly detailed campaign settings in print, and I plan to enjoy it.
Players that opted out of joining factions wouldn't be missing out on a whole lot, depending on how involved other players got.
Next up is the rest of the supplemental rules from UCam. I really like Fame scores and the downtime rules, and kingdom building is solidly out of the scope of the campaign, unless I'm sorely mistaken about the timeline that the game follows. If we're going to get a few days of downtime now and again, the downtime rules would be great.
Honor and honorable codes seem like a good addition to me as well. Could these be used?
And so on. Each of the supplemental rulesets in UCam are excellent and I plan to use them in any PF game that I run.
Finally, Other alternate rules, such as Piecemeal Armor, called shots, wordcasting, and so on. Which of these are acceptable, if any?
And more finally, which classes are forbidden? I think you said at one point that you didn't want to see certain things in play.
Edit: I stand corrected, RotRL occurs starting in 4702, it was mentioned in the timeline in the ISWG.
I'm super excited about this, as most of you know, and I've been working on several character concepts for most of the summer. I have some advice, and some questions for Zach.
Angela: I found the Mendevian Priest in Inner Sea Magic which you might find interesting for your cleric. It calls upon themes I've seen you play before, and so might provide an easy way for you to relate to the setting. A little background first.
The most important thing to know about the setting of Golarion revolves around the god Aroden, the Starstone, and the Age of Lost Omens. Here's the cliffnotes.
The earliest recorded event with a definite date was Earthfall. This was the cataclysm in which an artifact of immense power called the Starstone fell from the sky, created the inner sea region, and cast the world into a thousand year period of darkness. This may have happened at the behest of the Aboleth, who opposed the rival human empires of Azlant and Thassilon, which will both be important in the game. The date given to Earthfall is -5293. Yeah, minus. Skip ahead 5293 years, and the human hero Aroden raises the Starstone from the bottom of the inner sea, founds the city of Absolom, and becomes a living god. This marks year 1 of the Age of Enthronement. The Starstone is still in Absolom, and is protected by a labyrinth adventurers are free to attempt to navigate and perish in. To date, only Iomedae, Norgerber, and Cayden Cailean have passed the Test of the Starstone. All of them also became living gods.
Skipping ahead to the most important parts. Cheliax was the empire that carried Aroden's light into the world and spread far and wide. Year 4606 was prophesied to herald the return of Aroden to Cheliax, where he would lead his people to a new golden age. Instead he died. All of his clerics lost the ability to cast spells, he no longer responded to prayer, and since then no prophesies have come true. This is the Age of Lost Omens. In the void left by Aroden's death, Cheliax underwent a mad scramble of various groups seeking power. The House of Thrune, diabolists, took power. Cheliax crumbled and fragmented, several wars happened, it's now a much smaller state and is openly diabolist. That means they openly traffick with devils.
At the time of Aroden's death, two other things happened of great importance. The world wound opened. This was a direct portal to the abyss, where demons continue to pour out to this day. Mendev is a country that partially contains the worldwound, and is the focus of the Mendevian Crusades, in which people of high and low character alike seek retribution against the demonic hordes.
Also, the Eye of Abendego formed, a perpetual maelstrom which has never been successfully navigated.
The date of the Inner Sea World Guide is 4711, and I think this lines up with Rise of the Runelords. So it's been just over a hundred years since Aroden died, and the world has settled down somewhat. There's an enormous amount of history in the ISWG, and it's a great read, however, that's some of the background to explain the backdrop of the game. (After RotRL, it might be possible to play Wrath of the Righteous, which involves Mythic tiers and taking on the Worldwound.) Elves, Dwarves, and older Gnomes might remember the chaos of the fall of Aroden. Humans and half-orcs and others probably heard about it. Most of the church of Aroden shifted to worship of Iomedae, who was an ally of his and has taken up his mantle.
So, back to Angela's cleric. This cleric variant is an archetype which, unfortunately gives up one domain choice, but is otherwise fairly neat. It relates to Mendev and the perpetual battle against demonic incursion there. The worldwound is a horrific place where the material plane and the abyss overlap. They say that anything growing there is toxic, and merely drinking the water can slay a man.
The exchange is you lose a domain, but gain heavy armor proficiency (PF clerics do not gain this normally), two feats, and a neat knowledge ability about demons, demonic cults, and demonic magic. Thematically, however, you, even though first level, might be able to swing your background into encounters in the worldwound. Obviously up to you and Zach, but I've got access to almost all of the PF material, and I happened upon this and thought I'd share it.Mendevian Priest (Cleric Archetype)
People of high and low character flock to Mendev for glory, plunder, or the desire to slay demons from the Worldwound. Crusade-minded clerics of Iomedae, Gorum, and other churches come to Mendev, learn battlefield tactics and the weaknesses of demons, and strike out to make a name for themselves. A Mendevian priest has the following class features.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: A Mendevian priest is proficient with all simple weapons, light armor, medium armor, heavy armor, shields (except tower shields), and the favored weapon of her deity.
Diminished Spellcasting: A Mendevian priest chooses only one domain from her deity’s list of domains rather than the normal two domains. In all other respects, this works like and replaces the standard cleric domain ability.
Demonic Knowledge (Ex): At 1st level, when making Knowledge (planes) checks regarding demons, demonic cults, and their magic, a Mendevian priest gains a bonus on the check equal to half her class level (minimum +1)
and can make these Knowledge skill checks untrained.
Teamwork Feat: At 4th level and 8th level, the Mendevian priest gains a bonus feat. This must be a teamwork feat, Alignment Channel, Greater Spell Penetration, Leadership, or Spell Penetration. The cleric must meet the prerequisites of the selected bonus feat.
On to questions for Zach:
Factions, Magic Schools, and shit: In several books there are various factions the player can join which contributed to the final rules for reputation that appeared in Ultimate Campaign. I have a proposal to do with these.
Each of the books, Faction Guide, Inner Sea Magic, Guide to the Pathfinder Society, and Ultimate Campaign provide a slightly different set of rules and open the world up a bit more. Faction Guide has lots of great ways to tie a character into the setting, Inner Sea Magic has arcane schools, and important for everyone, rules for religions to belong to, and UC has the basic reputation stuff. Pathfinder Society sources list factions within the Pathfinder Society, which provide for some more interesting interplay for Pathfinder Society play.
It is intimated in several of the books that a character could belong to several factions, depending on if they have conflicting interests or not.
Religion is an important part of the setting, and given the Empyreal dedication feat and it's interesting potential, in Chronicle of the Righteous, which more accurately reflects the tendency of Catholics to revere a specific saint in addition to their God, in exchange for a feat and ritual dedications. Belonging to a monastery basically represents having an active religious life and giving two shits about your deity, in exchange for membership fees and gives the option to perform rituals and if you do good works for the religion in question you can progress and gain access to higher rituals and more powerful boons.
Here's the proposal: Characters can get involved with these factions, but can only "cash in" an adventure or deed with one faction at a time. I could benefit with the Church of Iomedae for slaying a demon, or I could publish it with the Pathfinder Society, but not both.
Alternately, an action promotes the relationship the character has with each faction that would care about it. This would mean that an action of forgiveness and clemency could promote a relationship with the church of Ioemedae and the Pathfinder Society, but might harm a relationship with the Szarni. This is more complicated, and could lead to escalating boons that almost seem powerful.
Finally, up to the total of: one arcane school, one religious order, one secret society, one guild, one faction from Faction Guide, the Pathfinder Society, one faction from the Pathfinder Society, and one version of the faction rules from Ultimate Campaign could be combined, and one prestige point/score tracked. This puts the burden of combination on the player, which is really keeping track of what the different factions care about, and what the boons are for the different expenditures. It would not be as complicated as it sounds. Essentially, you would track your score from UC, and could spend it on the lists for all your chosen factions.
Integrating players with the campaign setting is important to me because this is an opportunity to play in one of the most richly detailed campaign settings in print, and I plan to enjoy it.
Players that opted out of joining factions wouldn't be missing out on a whole lot, depending on how involved other players got.
Next up is the rest of the supplemental rules from UCam. I really like Fame scores and the downtime rules, and kingdom building is solidly out of the scope of the campaign, unless I'm sorely mistaken about the timeline that the game follows. If we're going to get a few days of downtime now and again, the downtime rules would be great.
Honor and honorable codes seem like a good addition to me as well. Could these be used?
And so on. Each of the supplemental rulesets in UCam are excellent and I plan to use them in any PF game that I run.
Finally, Other alternate rules, such as Piecemeal Armor, called shots, wordcasting, and so on. Which of these are acceptable, if any?
And more finally, which classes are forbidden? I think you said at one point that you didn't want to see certain things in play.
Edit: I stand corrected, RotRL occurs starting in 4702, it was mentioned in the timeline in the ISWG.
Class Restrictions: I think I originally said no cleric or druids, but I am going to cut that down to no druid. They are just too versatile with no downside. They can literally do everything with almost no loss of viability.
Factions, etc: I really don't know the rules on this. We can discuss it some before the first game session. I will wait to render a decision until then. It doesn't sound too bad, but I just don't know it well enough.
Honor and Honorable Codes: Which book are these in, i can possibly look them up quick and make a decision this week.
Piecemeal Armor: I am fine with this. I know there is a little min/maxing that can be done with it, but I am ok with it.
Called Shots: Again I am fine with this, they add a little bit of fun and you basically have to have the feats to do anything too awesome with them.
Wordcasting: I am undecided to this. My gut reaction is no because of how complicated they are for little gain. Though if someone is really wanting to use them and willing to do the upkeep on it, i might allow it. Though I would want someone who is adept at playing casters and done several of them.
I can't think of any alterenate rules to respond to. If you know of any you are interested in and are in one book I can reference quickly, list them here with the book and pages they are on.
Factions, etc: I really don't know the rules on this. We can discuss it some before the first game session. I will wait to render a decision until then. It doesn't sound too bad, but I just don't know it well enough.
Honor and Honorable Codes: Which book are these in, i can possibly look them up quick and make a decision this week.
Piecemeal Armor: I am fine with this. I know there is a little min/maxing that can be done with it, but I am ok with it.
Called Shots: Again I am fine with this, they add a little bit of fun and you basically have to have the feats to do anything too awesome with them.
Wordcasting: I am undecided to this. My gut reaction is no because of how complicated they are for little gain. Though if someone is really wanting to use them and willing to do the upkeep on it, i might allow it. Though I would want someone who is adept at playing casters and done several of them.
I can't think of any alterenate rules to respond to. If you know of any you are interested in and are in one book I can reference quickly, list them here with the book and pages they are on.
I couldn't really find anything about fame, but honor seems neat. However I think that as written it is mostly a system for something that didn't really need a system.
We can discuss factions at the game.
Saturday - I would like people to settle on what class they are playing (atleast at level 1) by the time food is done. I will give about 30 minutes to make characters and then we shall begin.
We can discuss factions at the game.
Saturday - I would like people to settle on what class they are playing (atleast at level 1) by the time food is done. I will give about 30 minutes to make characters and then we shall begin.
So, Aegis, wow.
Full BAB, 2 good saves, d10 hit die, evasion, stalwart, extra limbs, haste, two size categories, and an extra size category for you and all your weapons, and DR/-.
That is...an impressive class.
Personally, I'm looking at either going with Rogue, or another class variant that gets trapfinding like Archaeologist or Trapper, or playing a Wizard or Sorcerer. Inquisitor is still something I want to see play out, but it doesn't fill a needed role in the party and it isn't Golarion specific, which I'm interested in using something like that.
Since it's a module, we should expect traps and locked doors pretty frequently. In pathfinder, anyone with perception and the disable device skill can detect and disarm non-magical traps. It's those pesky magical traps that would TPK a party without a rogue.
I guess I'd like to know if Zach is comfortable with us using prestige and sources of crunch from throughout the golarion continuum. That could affect my decision a bit.
Full BAB, 2 good saves, d10 hit die, evasion, stalwart, extra limbs, haste, two size categories, and an extra size category for you and all your weapons, and DR/-.
That is...an impressive class.
Personally, I'm looking at either going with Rogue, or another class variant that gets trapfinding like Archaeologist or Trapper, or playing a Wizard or Sorcerer. Inquisitor is still something I want to see play out, but it doesn't fill a needed role in the party and it isn't Golarion specific, which I'm interested in using something like that.
Since it's a module, we should expect traps and locked doors pretty frequently. In pathfinder, anyone with perception and the disable device skill can detect and disarm non-magical traps. It's those pesky magical traps that would TPK a party without a rogue.
I guess I'd like to know if Zach is comfortable with us using prestige and sources of crunch from throughout the golarion continuum. That could affect my decision a bit.
Frankly, I wouldn't worry about traps that much. A party can, in fact, get through pretty much anything without a rogue. We might suck some trap damage here and there, but its unlikely to actually kill anyone, much less the whole party.
As for locked doors? Just break them. Or we can just keep a wand of knock handy if its a real problem. What I'm getting at is that you should play something you'll have fun with and not something you feel you have to because the party lacks a specific skill set. Traps, in particular, are not important enough to build a whole character around.
I'll not as far as skills go, I'm currently looking at investing into craft armor and craft weapons along with Craft Magical Arms and Armor; since Aegis gets the Master Craftsman feat for free (and some other crafting bonuses), might as well use it. Also looking at maxing UMD, mostly to aid with crafting, but also because it has general utility and is a class skill anyway.
As for races, I am inevitably drawn to human, though I'll probably sub out for Heart of the Fields. Aegis is a 4+Int skills class (which also uses Int as a power stat), so I'm not exactly hurting on that front. Heart of the Fields comes with EVEN MORE crafting bonuses. Yay.
As far as all the stuff you mentioned - you only get most of those things if you customize into them. Some are more useful than others. Almost everything you listed requires having multiple tiers of customizations listed at the same time, which limits how many can be active at once. I'm not that impressed with the higher-tiers of the extra limbs, for example (they don't grant extra attacks, but do let you hold stuff). The class is certainly flexible and powerful, that's part of what attracted me to it. It still isn't as flexible or powerful as a wizard or psion though, so I don't really feel bad about picking it.
As for locked doors? Just break them. Or we can just keep a wand of knock handy if its a real problem. What I'm getting at is that you should play something you'll have fun with and not something you feel you have to because the party lacks a specific skill set. Traps, in particular, are not important enough to build a whole character around.
I'll not as far as skills go, I'm currently looking at investing into craft armor and craft weapons along with Craft Magical Arms and Armor; since Aegis gets the Master Craftsman feat for free (and some other crafting bonuses), might as well use it. Also looking at maxing UMD, mostly to aid with crafting, but also because it has general utility and is a class skill anyway.
As for races, I am inevitably drawn to human, though I'll probably sub out for Heart of the Fields. Aegis is a 4+Int skills class (which also uses Int as a power stat), so I'm not exactly hurting on that front. Heart of the Fields comes with EVEN MORE crafting bonuses. Yay.
As far as all the stuff you mentioned - you only get most of those things if you customize into them. Some are more useful than others. Almost everything you listed requires having multiple tiers of customizations listed at the same time, which limits how many can be active at once. I'm not that impressed with the higher-tiers of the extra limbs, for example (they don't grant extra attacks, but do let you hold stuff). The class is certainly flexible and powerful, that's part of what attracted me to it. It still isn't as flexible or powerful as a wizard or psion though, so I don't really feel bad about picking it.
Ok, I'll play something more in line with what I want to get out of the game, which still depends on zach and prestige.
About the Aegis, it IS substantially more powerful in combat than PF classes. Greater Extra Arms is available by 8th level, and CAN be used to wield additional weapons and give extra attacks. Given the full BAB of the class, that puts it ahead of the fighter. Note that the summoner, the parallel PF class, has a 3/4 BAB, as does the Eidolon, and so never gets the last iteratives. For example, here's a list of enhancements you could bring into play by 10th level.
Operating as the juggernaut, you get stalwart for free at this point, so: Evasion, Greater Extra Arms, Flight, Increased Size, and Quickened Attacks. This costs 14 points out of your 14 points, but combined with improved two weapon fighting and multiweapon fighting, you have your first two attacks with your primary, your two attacks with your secondary, and two additional attacks beyond that, are large and wield large weapons permanently, are hasted permanently, and can fly. If you have a reliable caster and don't need to fly, save yourself 5 points and drop quickened attacks and flight, and instead get whatever else.
My point is, it's a very very strong class. It lacks any dependency on action economy save the full round action to activate juggernaut, and overtakes all other classes in attacks per turn at 8th level when greater extra arms becomes available.
That said, Go for it! It's really really cool, and ever since I picked up Psionics Expanded, I've wanted to see it go.
I'm seriously looking at Wizard with Void Elemental specialization (The elemental magic schools don't actually remove the normal magic school availability, they just oppose different sets of spells and favor different sets of spells), the Harrowed and Cypher Script spells from ISWG, and probably going into the Harrower PRC from ISWG. Ideally, Harrower from 7 through 16 to get all the cards by the endgame and maximize uses per day. Also, Varisian Tattoo and Scribe Magical Tattoo, with the former from ISWG and the latter from ISM.
Void Elemental Wizard is from Dragon Empires Primer.
The concept I'm working with is an Elf that has traveled the world and spent time in many parts of Golarion, including the Dragon Empires (where there happen to be a colony of elves), and eventually settling in Varisia to pursue his interests in the Harrow deck and it's apparent powers. His concepts of magic include primalism and a five elements view, and he has a great deal of interest in the ruins of Thassilon, and has spent some time listening to presentations by the Cypher Mages of Riddleport, where his studies of Varisian magic have been based from. He has contacts among Varisian wanderers, and once he is ready, he'll get his own magical tattoos and his own harrow deck, in order to continue his journey into the mysteries they contain.
About the Aegis, it IS substantially more powerful in combat than PF classes. Greater Extra Arms is available by 8th level, and CAN be used to wield additional weapons and give extra attacks. Given the full BAB of the class, that puts it ahead of the fighter. Note that the summoner, the parallel PF class, has a 3/4 BAB, as does the Eidolon, and so never gets the last iteratives. For example, here's a list of enhancements you could bring into play by 10th level.
Operating as the juggernaut, you get stalwart for free at this point, so: Evasion, Greater Extra Arms, Flight, Increased Size, and Quickened Attacks. This costs 14 points out of your 14 points, but combined with improved two weapon fighting and multiweapon fighting, you have your first two attacks with your primary, your two attacks with your secondary, and two additional attacks beyond that, are large and wield large weapons permanently, are hasted permanently, and can fly. If you have a reliable caster and don't need to fly, save yourself 5 points and drop quickened attacks and flight, and instead get whatever else.
My point is, it's a very very strong class. It lacks any dependency on action economy save the full round action to activate juggernaut, and overtakes all other classes in attacks per turn at 8th level when greater extra arms becomes available.
That said, Go for it! It's really really cool, and ever since I picked up Psionics Expanded, I've wanted to see it go.
I'm seriously looking at Wizard with Void Elemental specialization (The elemental magic schools don't actually remove the normal magic school availability, they just oppose different sets of spells and favor different sets of spells), the Harrowed and Cypher Script spells from ISWG, and probably going into the Harrower PRC from ISWG. Ideally, Harrower from 7 through 16 to get all the cards by the endgame and maximize uses per day. Also, Varisian Tattoo and Scribe Magical Tattoo, with the former from ISWG and the latter from ISM.
Void Elemental Wizard is from Dragon Empires Primer.
The concept I'm working with is an Elf that has traveled the world and spent time in many parts of Golarion, including the Dragon Empires (where there happen to be a colony of elves), and eventually settling in Varisia to pursue his interests in the Harrow deck and it's apparent powers. His concepts of magic include primalism and a five elements view, and he has a great deal of interest in the ruins of Thassilon, and has spent some time listening to presentations by the Cypher Mages of Riddleport, where his studies of Varisian magic have been based from. He has contacts among Varisian wanderers, and once he is ready, he'll get his own magical tattoos and his own harrow deck, in order to continue his journey into the mysteries they contain.
In pathfinder APs, you don't get to go to 20th level. Getting a PRC capstone by 16th level is doable and frequently the best you can get.
Most APs finish by 16th or 17th level, hence the popularity of the modules Moonscar and Witchwar Legacy, since they are meant to continue the story of an already 16th or 17th level party that have already finished an AP.
Most APs finish by 16th or 17th level, hence the popularity of the modules Moonscar and Witchwar Legacy, since they are meant to continue the story of an already 16th or 17th level party that have already finished an AP.
Okay, you're talking about feats. Feats are not class features. The extra arms do not, in and of themselves, grant extra attacks. In this particular case, I don't have the attribute spread to make 2 weapon fighting go, nor do I have any particular interest in doing so. I've done two-weapon fighting builds. They slow the game down substantially and generally do damage on par with (and often lower than) power-attack centric builds. The only way to make those extra arms grant extra attacks is with feats like Multiweapon Fighting. Its really up to a GM as to whether or not a PC is even eligible to take that, since it is a monster feat.
The Aegis isn't really built to be used by high-dex characters. The MaxDex on the medium and heavy versions of it are fairly low, so buying heavily into Dex isn't as appealing. There's no penalty on the skin version, admittedly, but also no AC, so now you're voiding a good chunk of the utility of the class (ie: that it grants you a free suit of armor). Even if you wore a mithril chain shirt over the skin version (with a maxdex of 6), you'd need a Dex of 22 to match the AC you'd otherwise be getting from juggernaut armor with a much lower Dex. And your Str probably sucks as a result. To my thinking, its better to build with a Dex of around 13 or so in mind and otherwise pump Str and Int (since this is an Int-centric class). The Aegis isn't a striker (though it can undoubtedly hit hard). Its an Aegis, a tank.
And despite all that it still isn't as strong or as versatile as a wizard or cleric (to say nothing of a druid). I promise. I can (and have) put together a CoDzilla cleric that would demolish it at your proposed 10th level in no time flat. Flexible? Yes. Powerful? Yes. But not more powerful than all the classes in the core book. Also not necessarily more powerful than a Summoner. The summoner may not be able to twink for as many attacks, but it has the advantage of being in two places at once and essentially doubling the number of attacks (and actions) it can take just by virtue of having a free-standing class feature. The summoner is not, incidentally, particularly parallel to the Aegis when compared to the Shaper Psion, who is pretty much a summoner with somewhat better casting and worse BAB (and a slightly less customizable pet, but lets be honest, not all of the customization options are necessarily good).
I intentionally build characters that rely on action economy, because I like having options available if I'm not able to take my full attack (which is almost all the freaking time). If I'm not using swift/immediate actions in combat, something is wrong and I'm losing out on something I could be doing. I'll find something to use actions on. Having options is fun.
The Aegis isn't really built to be used by high-dex characters. The MaxDex on the medium and heavy versions of it are fairly low, so buying heavily into Dex isn't as appealing. There's no penalty on the skin version, admittedly, but also no AC, so now you're voiding a good chunk of the utility of the class (ie: that it grants you a free suit of armor). Even if you wore a mithril chain shirt over the skin version (with a maxdex of 6), you'd need a Dex of 22 to match the AC you'd otherwise be getting from juggernaut armor with a much lower Dex. And your Str probably sucks as a result. To my thinking, its better to build with a Dex of around 13 or so in mind and otherwise pump Str and Int (since this is an Int-centric class). The Aegis isn't a striker (though it can undoubtedly hit hard). Its an Aegis, a tank.
And despite all that it still isn't as strong or as versatile as a wizard or cleric (to say nothing of a druid). I promise. I can (and have) put together a CoDzilla cleric that would demolish it at your proposed 10th level in no time flat. Flexible? Yes. Powerful? Yes. But not more powerful than all the classes in the core book. Also not necessarily more powerful than a Summoner. The summoner may not be able to twink for as many attacks, but it has the advantage of being in two places at once and essentially doubling the number of attacks (and actions) it can take just by virtue of having a free-standing class feature. The summoner is not, incidentally, particularly parallel to the Aegis when compared to the Shaper Psion, who is pretty much a summoner with somewhat better casting and worse BAB (and a slightly less customizable pet, but lets be honest, not all of the customization options are necessarily good).
I intentionally build characters that rely on action economy, because I like having options available if I'm not able to take my full attack (which is almost all the freaking time). If I'm not using swift/immediate actions in combat, something is wrong and I'm losing out on something I could be doing. I'll find something to use actions on. Having options is fun.
I understand all of that. It should be clarified that the third tier extra arms customization GIVES YOU EXTRA ATTACKS whether you optimize them with multiweapon fighting or not. Just like having a second arm allows a character to swing a weapon with it, whether he has the two weapon fighting feat or not. The feat merely mitigates penalties.
I compared it to summoner based on the synthesist variant, given that one of the advanced variants of Aegis lets you take summoner evolutions, and Aegis and Synthesist function similarly. Synthesist is an extremely broken class archetype for a number of reasons, not the least of which is the action balance. By that of course I mean the ability to exceed all other classes in actions per turn.
Unlike the synthesist summoner, the Aegis does not stack arms. A synthesist can wind up with 28 or so attacks, all things considered. It's more like 12 if you're taking the appropriate evolutions to get enough strength to make the attacks matter. The Extra Arms customization does not say it stacks, and customizations must say they stack in order to do so. It upgrades and ultimately costs 6 points at the level at which it grants teh ability to wield weapons or help wield weapons. It can be used to dual wield two handed weapons, or to quad wield, or probably to shoot two bows at once, or braid hair and cook at the same time.
I think it's cool, I encourage you to go right ahead and build your character with it, I'm not objecting to it's use at all. Merely making some observations and having some discussion.
So, whatever that was, aside, I've got the bare bones of a build put together.
Void Elementalist Wizard 6 / Harrower 10
In his journeys near and far, Luthwendel, has studied magic out of habit more than anything else. A low born Elf in a big city, Luthwendel grew up with vague memories of the elven nation of Jinin, in the heart of the dragon empires, though his family moved to Goka, driven there by opportunity and a desire to move out of serfdom and into the middle class. This dream was not to pass, as the city's celebrated pasttime of gambling claimed much of what little the family had saved. Still peasants doomed to serve the middle and upper classes, and now trapped into a cycle of debt and risk, Luthwendel fell in with dangerous people, perhaps in a desperate attempt to get free of the drudgery of cleaning the grounds of the wealthy merely to live in their filth.
A group of alley bashers, hooligans and thieves, allowed Luthwendel to run with them for a time, and while he passed their test by destroying a shrine of Desna, the open forgiveness of the cleric touched Luthwendel, and he started spending more time helping to rebuild the shrine than he did with his gang. Encouraged to look to Magic and learning to break free of the cycle he felt trapped in, and to build the courage to take to the open road and follow his dreams, this humble Seer changed Luthwendel's life forever. After many years of study, Luthwendel was able to begin his journey into magic in earnest, much to the chagrin of his social betters. Unwilling to consign himself back to servitude, and equally unwilling to endanger his family's already precarious social position, Luthwendel turned to the embrace of Desna: the open road.
Identifying with this originally Varisian religion, however rare in Goka, led Luthwendel to seek answers and belonging among the Wayfarers who daily lived the tenets of Desna. Finding room for an elf in steerage headed West wasn't terribly difficult, and Luthwendel shared what few coppers and rice he had with the others in those conditions and bided his time.
Once in Avistan, finding his way to Varisia was at times dangerous, and at most times exciting and different. Free of the opressive caste mentality, once in the open lands of Varisia, Luthwendel was free to become who he wished. Eager to avoid falling back into the same cycle as before, Luthwendel bypassed an opportunity to hole up in the dark slum tombs of Kaer Maga, and instead found work as a scribe in Riddleport. He frequently attended meetings and presentations by the Cypher Mages, and learned of the various mysteries of the monuments of Riddleport. Later, he traveled on to Galduria, pursuing rumors of The Harrowed Society, from whom he learned of the mysteries of this strange tradition. Unsatisfied for the time being to learn of these wonderful new things third hand, he sought out a Varisian Fortune Teller, and became Harrowed. His own Harrow deck was not hard to find, and the revealing insights it provided captured his imagination and his dedication. After many more years, Luthwendel became known to the Varisian Wanderers, the faithful of Desna, and the Harrowed Society, as one of them.
Now he follows a confusing portent to the small town of Sandpoint, eager to enter the next cycle of his life, whatever that may be.
I compared it to summoner based on the synthesist variant, given that one of the advanced variants of Aegis lets you take summoner evolutions, and Aegis and Synthesist function similarly. Synthesist is an extremely broken class archetype for a number of reasons, not the least of which is the action balance. By that of course I mean the ability to exceed all other classes in actions per turn.
Unlike the synthesist summoner, the Aegis does not stack arms. A synthesist can wind up with 28 or so attacks, all things considered. It's more like 12 if you're taking the appropriate evolutions to get enough strength to make the attacks matter. The Extra Arms customization does not say it stacks, and customizations must say they stack in order to do so. It upgrades and ultimately costs 6 points at the level at which it grants teh ability to wield weapons or help wield weapons. It can be used to dual wield two handed weapons, or to quad wield, or probably to shoot two bows at once, or braid hair and cook at the same time.
I think it's cool, I encourage you to go right ahead and build your character with it, I'm not objecting to it's use at all. Merely making some observations and having some discussion.
So, whatever that was, aside, I've got the bare bones of a build put together.
Void Elementalist Wizard 6 / Harrower 10
In his journeys near and far, Luthwendel, has studied magic out of habit more than anything else. A low born Elf in a big city, Luthwendel grew up with vague memories of the elven nation of Jinin, in the heart of the dragon empires, though his family moved to Goka, driven there by opportunity and a desire to move out of serfdom and into the middle class. This dream was not to pass, as the city's celebrated pasttime of gambling claimed much of what little the family had saved. Still peasants doomed to serve the middle and upper classes, and now trapped into a cycle of debt and risk, Luthwendel fell in with dangerous people, perhaps in a desperate attempt to get free of the drudgery of cleaning the grounds of the wealthy merely to live in their filth.
A group of alley bashers, hooligans and thieves, allowed Luthwendel to run with them for a time, and while he passed their test by destroying a shrine of Desna, the open forgiveness of the cleric touched Luthwendel, and he started spending more time helping to rebuild the shrine than he did with his gang. Encouraged to look to Magic and learning to break free of the cycle he felt trapped in, and to build the courage to take to the open road and follow his dreams, this humble Seer changed Luthwendel's life forever. After many years of study, Luthwendel was able to begin his journey into magic in earnest, much to the chagrin of his social betters. Unwilling to consign himself back to servitude, and equally unwilling to endanger his family's already precarious social position, Luthwendel turned to the embrace of Desna: the open road.
Identifying with this originally Varisian religion, however rare in Goka, led Luthwendel to seek answers and belonging among the Wayfarers who daily lived the tenets of Desna. Finding room for an elf in steerage headed West wasn't terribly difficult, and Luthwendel shared what few coppers and rice he had with the others in those conditions and bided his time.
Once in Avistan, finding his way to Varisia was at times dangerous, and at most times exciting and different. Free of the opressive caste mentality, once in the open lands of Varisia, Luthwendel was free to become who he wished. Eager to avoid falling back into the same cycle as before, Luthwendel bypassed an opportunity to hole up in the dark slum tombs of Kaer Maga, and instead found work as a scribe in Riddleport. He frequently attended meetings and presentations by the Cypher Mages, and learned of the various mysteries of the monuments of Riddleport. Later, he traveled on to Galduria, pursuing rumors of The Harrowed Society, from whom he learned of the mysteries of this strange tradition. Unsatisfied for the time being to learn of these wonderful new things third hand, he sought out a Varisian Fortune Teller, and became Harrowed. His own Harrow deck was not hard to find, and the revealing insights it provided captured his imagination and his dedication. After many more years, Luthwendel became known to the Varisian Wanderers, the faithful of Desna, and the Harrowed Society, as one of them.
Now he follows a confusing portent to the small town of Sandpoint, eager to enter the next cycle of his life, whatever that may be.