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This thread talks about whether battlemaps detract from rp or not. I kind of think that they have with our games a little bit, and would like to offer some opinions. Our dnd combats kind of suck...all of our dnd combats for a long time have sucked, there is no roleplay to them, no creativity. All we ever do is dick around not paying attention to what other people are doing until it is our turn then we move and attack or move and cast, or whatever it is that we do. We don't ever describe what we do, we don't ever try to stunt or offer any visuals to our actions. How come we can play Exalted, Feng Shui and Marvel and stunt the hell out of them, and have a great time with the fighting, but when we play dnd we "move over there, oh wait does he have reach, hmmmm, ok....can I move there? Is that flanking? Wait were you going to cast? What spell? Can you still cast it without hitting me? OK....hmmmmmm....I guess I'll move over here and attack that one then." We don't really vary attacks, we just hit the same macro time and time again. The only reason that I know that Imoak is pissed, rage-y, and extremely violent in combat is because I know that Josh made a Barbarian/frenzied berserker. So what can we do to change this, or are people fine with things the way that they are? I am most certainly not ok with them, but I could be in the minority. So I suggest rewarding stunts with more xp for the players that do very well with them, or reducing the amount of xp that people get from an encounter if they don’t make things interesting. I think that this is one of the reasons that we have been really sucking in the rp department for a while. We run combat more often than not, and when we aren’t in combat we tend to spend lots of time planning strategy for combat. Well if we are spending the majority of our time in game out of character or not acting as our character would act, then we don’t truly form our characters and the times that we do actually rp it is lacking. This is just something that has been bothering me, that I finally was able to identify, until I read some of that thread.
Moderator: adam
Paul: Use the enter key between thoughts. It helps people read it.
General Reply: I don't think that battlemats detract, unless they are used without any flavor (which we are often guilty of), or people refuse to pay attention (people don't generally, often not even getting up to look at the map). That said, some visual representation is absolutely required, unless you want a rules-light game that ignores most of the crunch of the game. You can use a tape measure and unmarked flat surface with terrain (we did that in my epic game, and it ran well), but that's about the only other option imo.
Specific Alternatives:
1) Most other games that focus on stunts give an in-game bonus, either to xp, or to the actions characters take. I don't like xp personally, there is already enough xp grubbing in most games anyway. But the bonus, either + to hit/dmg, or additional action points, is imo worthwhile. It makes it worth it to describe stuff.
2) People don't describe shit, thus the game is boring. Nothing is in character when mechanics are under discussion. This is in part due to the complexity of the system, and the necessity of rules transparency so people know what is going on at the table ("he swings with wild abandon and savagery" is nice as a descriptor, but if someone has the Elusive Target feat, they need to know they are being Power Attacked). But people could add descriptions, and actually, you know, do things their characters would do. That would be nice. Examples include: a) seeking out preferred targets on the field (not just tactically sound ones; more like the paladin seeking out demons, or the dwarf seeking out giants), b) not communicating outside of real-time IC to coordinate their battle plans (which would also nicely speed up combat, and increase the overall challenge of encounters), and c) play your attributes, not yourself.
3) Know your actions ahead of time by paying attention to others. Pay attention in general. KNOW YOUR FUCKING #'s! READ YOUR GODDAMNED SPELLS! I really get sick of this, and it's generally the same people that do it... you know who you are, and it really is uncalled for. This isn't a game based on "maybe" or "approximately," nor are other games for that matter. Nor, in a related note, is it a game of solitaire where you ignore everyone else until it's your turn to "win the game" (this one applies to more than just the lazy #'s/spells people). It's just you being lazy, and a hypocrite. Suck it up, every one else did their numbers, and read their spells. And you expect others to actually pay attention to the games while they play, so you should give the same respect to everyone else.
4) Fudge in favor of story/sense. There is a gm for a reason. While certainly the RAW has its place, the game doesn't play incredibly well when forced to run off of RAW, and it is exceptionally hard to keep up a good story and suspension of disbelief while some asshole is telling you why a literal interpretation of spell #171 makes the whole scene irrelevant or over-complicates it needlessly, especially when such a reading is counter to common sense. This goes for players and gm's equally.
---
IMO, all of the above would improve the game. But will we do it? Or just be lazy assholes? Because, despite the fact that some people are more guilty than others for dragging down the overall play experience, it really is a group effort at sucking... I know, because I'm exceptionally guilty of zoning out, and being a rules lawyer that sucks the fun out of scenes (though I try to use my powers for good these days).
So, in summary, I'd like to see things get better, but not by removing the mat, since some sort of visual aid is necessary. Rather, I'd like to see descriptives rewarded, and people put more effort into creating a better environment. I'll give bonuses to hit/dc in my games for good description, but that will require people actually bother to do it. I'll try to be better about IC play as well, but if it isn't reinforced and others aren't doing it, then I'll probably revert to bad habits eventually.
General Reply: I don't think that battlemats detract, unless they are used without any flavor (which we are often guilty of), or people refuse to pay attention (people don't generally, often not even getting up to look at the map). That said, some visual representation is absolutely required, unless you want a rules-light game that ignores most of the crunch of the game. You can use a tape measure and unmarked flat surface with terrain (we did that in my epic game, and it ran well), but that's about the only other option imo.
Specific Alternatives:
1) Most other games that focus on stunts give an in-game bonus, either to xp, or to the actions characters take. I don't like xp personally, there is already enough xp grubbing in most games anyway. But the bonus, either + to hit/dmg, or additional action points, is imo worthwhile. It makes it worth it to describe stuff.
2) People don't describe shit, thus the game is boring. Nothing is in character when mechanics are under discussion. This is in part due to the complexity of the system, and the necessity of rules transparency so people know what is going on at the table ("he swings with wild abandon and savagery" is nice as a descriptor, but if someone has the Elusive Target feat, they need to know they are being Power Attacked). But people could add descriptions, and actually, you know, do things their characters would do. That would be nice. Examples include: a) seeking out preferred targets on the field (not just tactically sound ones; more like the paladin seeking out demons, or the dwarf seeking out giants), b) not communicating outside of real-time IC to coordinate their battle plans (which would also nicely speed up combat, and increase the overall challenge of encounters), and c) play your attributes, not yourself.
3) Know your actions ahead of time by paying attention to others. Pay attention in general. KNOW YOUR FUCKING #'s! READ YOUR GODDAMNED SPELLS! I really get sick of this, and it's generally the same people that do it... you know who you are, and it really is uncalled for. This isn't a game based on "maybe" or "approximately," nor are other games for that matter. Nor, in a related note, is it a game of solitaire where you ignore everyone else until it's your turn to "win the game" (this one applies to more than just the lazy #'s/spells people). It's just you being lazy, and a hypocrite. Suck it up, every one else did their numbers, and read their spells. And you expect others to actually pay attention to the games while they play, so you should give the same respect to everyone else.
4) Fudge in favor of story/sense. There is a gm for a reason. While certainly the RAW has its place, the game doesn't play incredibly well when forced to run off of RAW, and it is exceptionally hard to keep up a good story and suspension of disbelief while some asshole is telling you why a literal interpretation of spell #171 makes the whole scene irrelevant or over-complicates it needlessly, especially when such a reading is counter to common sense. This goes for players and gm's equally.
---
IMO, all of the above would improve the game. But will we do it? Or just be lazy assholes? Because, despite the fact that some people are more guilty than others for dragging down the overall play experience, it really is a group effort at sucking... I know, because I'm exceptionally guilty of zoning out, and being a rules lawyer that sucks the fun out of scenes (though I try to use my powers for good these days).
So, in summary, I'd like to see things get better, but not by removing the mat, since some sort of visual aid is necessary. Rather, I'd like to see descriptives rewarded, and people put more effort into creating a better environment. I'll give bonuses to hit/dc in my games for good description, but that will require people actually bother to do it. I'll try to be better about IC play as well, but if it isn't reinforced and others aren't doing it, then I'll probably revert to bad habits eventually.
Threading the Gerbil since 1982
Proposal: Rules mandated RP game. (as Cheyneeeeeeeeeeeeee mentioned with more meanness)
Consequences:
1) Increased combat difficulty (less meta-knowledge of who to target based on CR)
Eliminate the "who looks the most wounded meta question" (an overused way of asking who has the most damage on them.
-That information should be partially presented by the GM anyway. More often than not it will take a few turns to determine if the monster has damage reduction of your type, or regeneration. THAT IS WHAT KNOWEDGE ROLLS ARE FOR. You know, when the ominous dragon-sized claw marks were described in the lobby? Use a knowledge check to figure it out. (Can I use knowledge nature to determine more about this creature?)
However, the players must do their part too. Play a character who is both an individual, AND has some specific link to the rest of the party. The Orc, who was rescued and adopted by the Human Paladin's home, values the thoughts of his holy companion, even if they are a little lacking in the smash. This is not "When superheroes used a complex number system to overcome an uncounted horde of blue marbles on a mat!"
It should be more on the lines of a set of skilled characters working together to defeat the unique challenge at hand.
What is the CR of Animated Gummy Worms (Electric Shock flavored) if they have arrived in a swarm?
Consequences:
1) Increased combat difficulty (less meta-knowledge of who to target based on CR)
Eliminate the "who looks the most wounded meta question" (an overused way of asking who has the most damage on them.
-That information should be partially presented by the GM anyway. More often than not it will take a few turns to determine if the monster has damage reduction of your type, or regeneration. THAT IS WHAT KNOWEDGE ROLLS ARE FOR. You know, when the ominous dragon-sized claw marks were described in the lobby? Use a knowledge check to figure it out. (Can I use knowledge nature to determine more about this creature?)
However, the players must do their part too. Play a character who is both an individual, AND has some specific link to the rest of the party. The Orc, who was rescued and adopted by the Human Paladin's home, values the thoughts of his holy companion, even if they are a little lacking in the smash. This is not "When superheroes used a complex number system to overcome an uncounted horde of blue marbles on a mat!"
It should be more on the lines of a set of skilled characters working together to defeat the unique challenge at hand.
What is the CR of Animated Gummy Worms (Electric Shock flavored) if they have arrived in a swarm?
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also no battle mats do not detract " " (Cheyne et al, 2010).
In fact I'd say we need more physical representations of monsters / terrain. If only they did not cost fark-loads of loot to acquire.
I have a large supply of "monster minis" that can fill the void of chum attackers and/or interesting creatures a dnd game might need, if any are interested.
In fact I'd say we need more physical representations of monsters / terrain. If only they did not cost fark-loads of loot to acquire.
I have a large supply of "monster minis" that can fill the void of chum attackers and/or interesting creatures a dnd game might need, if any are interested.
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they are D&D minis, sized for the purpose of such use.
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Liquidprism
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Yet another complaint thread that will probably get read, and talked about, and then subsequently ignored. There was another thread on these boards not to long ago, which asked people to say what they did, and didn't like about the RP in the group. This maybe should have gone there. I think it feels a bit passive aggressive the way this was posted personally, but whatever.
I for one feel like I'm a pretty good role-player. People may not like my characters, but at least I play them consistently, and with an understanding of their stat lines. I will make bad decisions, and act in an unsound manner tactically if my character would do so. I have been chastised for this in the past in fact. People get pissed when you do things that ruin a plan, or cause more problems, but guess what... that happens. Also as recently as last DnD session I was pressured to end an active RP interaction because someone felt bored by it. Seriously, this is really bad etiquette, and it directly works against the whole reason to play an rpg.
Yeah, I'm guilty of playing by myself a lot of the time, but quiet frankly the game is more fun that way. People spend so much time dicking around out of character or in the metagame that the experience is ruined for me. So I play by myself. I care largely about the game as it affects me, and I affect it. This is a habit that has evolved from years of reinforcement from other players who just don't care enough to... well, care. Is it right? Probably not, but its why I play the way I do.
I feel like I have some room to talk here, as I am consistently one of the most involved players in any game I am in. I write rich detailed backgrounds. I play with the toys the GM sets in the world. I try really hard to stay in character, and make decisions my character would make. I show up regularly. I am enthusiastic, and I am more than willing to work with and give constructive feedback to the Gm. This isn't to say I am a perfect player, or without flaw, but it certainly demonstrates that I care about the games enough to be involved, and it gives me a platform to stand on when I actually have a complaint. Half the time most of the players in a given game can't even identify their comrades by name. Make a list or something, its really ridiculous to constantly hear people referring to 'Paul's character', or "The Elf' because they can't be bothered enough to have figured out the name of that character after 6 month's of gaming with it.
Yes, I also agree that descriptives are needed more often in games, to add flavor to what is going on. I use to be really good at this, but again the behavior was not enforced so it died away. When everyone around you is crunching the numbers, and fighting in the meta-game it becomes very easy to do likewise. Quiet frankly you feel like an ass, when you're the only one in a room spouting off colorful actions, and wacky adjectives. That said I think players should be rewarded in so way for being creative, and adding to the fun. So, systems which enforce that with rules are plus in my book.
I guess my point is that people need to care more. We aren't caring enough. If you can't be bothered to do so, then maybe you shouldn't be role-playing. There isn't really any other way to put that. It comes across as harsh, but I just don't know what else to say. The games are sucking, and it's a community effort. Thus the community needs to change or the culture won't.
As far as battle mats ruining a game goes... its really the same as any other rp tool. It only ruins things if you let it. Something is needed to represent battle in a way that makes tactical decisions meaningful (for those that care). Also the miniatures can be neat, and add a flare all their own. I kind of like them personally.
Oh I also wanted to add, that most of the time during a session I have a constant picture running through my head of what is happening. Its like a fullscreen movie with effects and everything. Its the way the escapism hits me I guess. So for my part this really helps mitigate a lot of the issues most people have with the games. I don't necessarily need other people to describe anything, because my head pictures do it all for me.
Anyway, I think thats all I have to say about that.
I for one feel like I'm a pretty good role-player. People may not like my characters, but at least I play them consistently, and with an understanding of their stat lines. I will make bad decisions, and act in an unsound manner tactically if my character would do so. I have been chastised for this in the past in fact. People get pissed when you do things that ruin a plan, or cause more problems, but guess what... that happens. Also as recently as last DnD session I was pressured to end an active RP interaction because someone felt bored by it. Seriously, this is really bad etiquette, and it directly works against the whole reason to play an rpg.
Yeah, I'm guilty of playing by myself a lot of the time, but quiet frankly the game is more fun that way. People spend so much time dicking around out of character or in the metagame that the experience is ruined for me. So I play by myself. I care largely about the game as it affects me, and I affect it. This is a habit that has evolved from years of reinforcement from other players who just don't care enough to... well, care. Is it right? Probably not, but its why I play the way I do.
I feel like I have some room to talk here, as I am consistently one of the most involved players in any game I am in. I write rich detailed backgrounds. I play with the toys the GM sets in the world. I try really hard to stay in character, and make decisions my character would make. I show up regularly. I am enthusiastic, and I am more than willing to work with and give constructive feedback to the Gm. This isn't to say I am a perfect player, or without flaw, but it certainly demonstrates that I care about the games enough to be involved, and it gives me a platform to stand on when I actually have a complaint. Half the time most of the players in a given game can't even identify their comrades by name. Make a list or something, its really ridiculous to constantly hear people referring to 'Paul's character', or "The Elf' because they can't be bothered enough to have figured out the name of that character after 6 month's of gaming with it.
Yes, I also agree that descriptives are needed more often in games, to add flavor to what is going on. I use to be really good at this, but again the behavior was not enforced so it died away. When everyone around you is crunching the numbers, and fighting in the meta-game it becomes very easy to do likewise. Quiet frankly you feel like an ass, when you're the only one in a room spouting off colorful actions, and wacky adjectives. That said I think players should be rewarded in so way for being creative, and adding to the fun. So, systems which enforce that with rules are plus in my book.
I guess my point is that people need to care more. We aren't caring enough. If you can't be bothered to do so, then maybe you shouldn't be role-playing. There isn't really any other way to put that. It comes across as harsh, but I just don't know what else to say. The games are sucking, and it's a community effort. Thus the community needs to change or the culture won't.
As far as battle mats ruining a game goes... its really the same as any other rp tool. It only ruins things if you let it. Something is needed to represent battle in a way that makes tactical decisions meaningful (for those that care). Also the miniatures can be neat, and add a flare all their own. I kind of like them personally.
Oh I also wanted to add, that most of the time during a session I have a constant picture running through my head of what is happening. Its like a fullscreen movie with effects and everything. Its the way the escapism hits me I guess. So for my part this really helps mitigate a lot of the issues most people have with the games. I don't necessarily need other people to describe anything, because my head pictures do it all for me.
Anyway, I think thats all I have to say about that.
All things in moderation...Except syrup.
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Most of these types of "suggestion" or "query" threads are actually passive complaints. The last one was too. And they mostly don't go anywhere. Largely because everyone points at everyone else and criticizes them for making things suck, while justifying their own shitty habits. I fully admit to being just as guilty of donating to the suckage as everyone else.
I'll try and engage more, and reward people for descriptives, but that's about all I can promise. I'd like to play some different games, and smaller ones, as I think some of these problems might be ironed out there. And if good habits can be started, they can then be continued. But whatever.
While we're being passive aggressive, the top three problems I see:
1. People keep doing things they don't enjoy. This makes for a lack of enthusiasm, engagement, and cooperation on the part of the miserable person, which reduces fun for everyone.
2. People are lazy. If you don't care enough to look up from your video game or talk for the entirety of a session... damn, why bother. If you can't be bothered to create the game you want to play in, you can't really expect others to give it to you.
3. People don't externalize their characters. You have to show others who you are, through actions, descriptions, and conversations (assuming there is a character there at all, rather than a collection of numbers). Sitting around not interacting doesn't do much.
Bonus #4: People have tunnel vision. Whether it's problem solving methodology, or just utter focus on a goal without any care given towards interacting, people don't seem to see options out there aside from the one or two they fixate on.
I think I may run a teenage drama with vampires and werewolves. At least then people would be forced to interact, since we know there isn't a plot, xp is irrelevant, and the numbers don't matter. Who's on board for ~Moonrise~, a chronicle telling the tale of young supernatural creatures in a twilight world, caught between humanity and their darker natures?
edit: sorry if i sound bitchy, but i really haven't been having much fun lately. Summer game was some of the best rp I've seen in a while, I enjoyed that, but there really just isn't much interaction in any of the games right now. I'm going to do my best to make things interesting, and then start dropping things I don't enjoy if they don't improve (games I run included). Lead by example and all. And then I won't be a hypocrite.
I like hanging with people, and I want to keep doing that. I want to play games with people too, but I want to interact ic, have conversations, advance characters in more than 1 dimension, and have a rich and descriptive experience... you know, roleplay. That hasn't been happening much lately. I wasn't joking about the teen drama game btw. I'd like something, anything, to take people's minds off of the systems and the metaplot for a while, and I think a jaunt into some other genre might be useful.
I'll try and engage more, and reward people for descriptives, but that's about all I can promise. I'd like to play some different games, and smaller ones, as I think some of these problems might be ironed out there. And if good habits can be started, they can then be continued. But whatever.
While we're being passive aggressive, the top three problems I see:
1. People keep doing things they don't enjoy. This makes for a lack of enthusiasm, engagement, and cooperation on the part of the miserable person, which reduces fun for everyone.
2. People are lazy. If you don't care enough to look up from your video game or talk for the entirety of a session... damn, why bother. If you can't be bothered to create the game you want to play in, you can't really expect others to give it to you.
3. People don't externalize their characters. You have to show others who you are, through actions, descriptions, and conversations (assuming there is a character there at all, rather than a collection of numbers). Sitting around not interacting doesn't do much.
Bonus #4: People have tunnel vision. Whether it's problem solving methodology, or just utter focus on a goal without any care given towards interacting, people don't seem to see options out there aside from the one or two they fixate on.
I think I may run a teenage drama with vampires and werewolves. At least then people would be forced to interact, since we know there isn't a plot, xp is irrelevant, and the numbers don't matter. Who's on board for ~Moonrise~, a chronicle telling the tale of young supernatural creatures in a twilight world, caught between humanity and their darker natures?
edit: sorry if i sound bitchy, but i really haven't been having much fun lately. Summer game was some of the best rp I've seen in a while, I enjoyed that, but there really just isn't much interaction in any of the games right now. I'm going to do my best to make things interesting, and then start dropping things I don't enjoy if they don't improve (games I run included). Lead by example and all. And then I won't be a hypocrite.
I like hanging with people, and I want to keep doing that. I want to play games with people too, but I want to interact ic, have conversations, advance characters in more than 1 dimension, and have a rich and descriptive experience... you know, roleplay. That hasn't been happening much lately. I wasn't joking about the teen drama game btw. I'd like something, anything, to take people's minds off of the systems and the metaplot for a while, and I think a jaunt into some other genre might be useful.
Threading the Gerbil since 1982
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angelicyokai
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Kyaa! I would, like, totally be on board for some, like, totally awesome teen angst!
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“Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by. If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones.”
― Marcus Aurelius
Take the Magic: The Gathering 'What Color Are You?' Quiz.[/CENTER]“Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by. If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones.”
― Marcus Aurelius
Battle maps are one of many possible things that cause focus to shift during game play, but I think if handled correctly by the players/gm the upsides out weight the downsides. The large group size, and specific choices/lack of choices during character creation/play ect. form the paradigm of the game. The way we treat the board is just part of the larger picture.
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I think that for our group atleast it is less about the battle map and more about our approach to d&d. We focus highly on the mechanics and the details, less the fluff. This lends us to not focus on our characters as people, but as stats to be used and talked about. How we build characters is even a part of this. We don't look at classes to make the character flow, but to make them the most powerful possible.