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[Avilister]

I'm sort of in a similar boat regarding Fighter - it was mentioned as something I wanted to take quite a while ago. I've done a little looking around, and I'm not satisfied with any of the substitutions I've been able to find for it. Fighter is certainly the most thematically appropriate class for me to take and the crowding-out problem is really sort of exacerbated in epic levels. I find it a bit stifling, given that I only took 3 classes sub-epic to begin with.

[jimreaper]

unforeseen consequence of the class limitation rule (which is not limited to fighter post epic)
There is little room for a player who has yet to make a character to be any good in this system of all the Cheese has been eaten, so to speak. How could a non-optimized character even survive? My base class selection is limited and kind of confusing. As long as we avoid having parallel character concepts, why should we be limited on which class we take?

I'm not sure I can meet the requirements of the game (silent or spoken)
1) be up to par or die
2) be invested in your character
3) nab up the class with the most power first (before other players)
4) select a base race that is not similar to any other (both before others and with meaning)

All I'm just saying that some of the goals of this game oppose each other. My creativity is limited both by a large library of math and the speed in which i call dibs on it.

I will try and put something together that is fun, that can do math too.

[rydi]

I sympathize, i really do. But opening up classes freely after 20 really does result in the same classes over and over again. Paladin, fighter, Cleric primarily. They are too high utility. And my whole reason for going this route is to do DIFFERENT things that can't otherwise be done. And if everyone has the same stuff, it really isn't as cool, and people aren't as unique. Think outside the box a little, perhaps look at some prestige classes as opposed to base classes, etc.

Do people want me to open up # of classes post epic to 12? that would help with some of the problems I think, since you could then take some more prestiges to fill in the 20 lvls.

Jonathan:
There are actually a ton of options left open, many of which I would LOVE to try, were I playing. Some are ridiculously simple (archer, though paladin is out, which hurts a bit but isn't totally crippling and can be replicated via other means to some degree), while others a bit more complex (bestest caster EVER), but the point is that there are still many roles open. If you can give me an idea what kind of role you want to fill (either in terms of general tasks, or the 4th ed style striker/controler/etc.) I will happily point you in the right direction (though I wouldn't want to take away the fun of actually making the build for you).
Edit: Focused Healing builds (or raptor jesus) are open as well.

[Liquidprism]

Non-optimized is okay. I will be playing a character, which has not been well optimized. I plan on looking at the development of character fluff, and roleplay aspects of this game before the numbers. I would urge others to do the same. This game will have to rely on the roleplaying, or it will fast become boring.

Any single one of these characters is almost a full party unto themselves. The sheer power of these builds is enough to solo any typical encounter. This game isn't meant to be a dick measuring contest w/ other players, and/or the monster manual. We have already 'won the game' by normal standards.

Thus, we have to look elsewhere to have fun. I am seeing/hearing a lot of talk about the feats and numbers, and optimization, but almost nothing on the personalities of these... character/monsters/outlandish things. I would urge everyone playing to take a step back, and think about this.

That said, I sympathize w/ Jonathan to some degree, and feel he does raise a valid point. This is sort of tangential/contradictory, but I felt it should be expressed.

[Amseriah]

ok, this is still tentative....but, my idea is:

Pre Epic
Paladin 18
Divine Oracle 2

Bard 13
Sublime Chord 2
Dread Witch 5

Wilder 10
Cerebremancer 10

Epic
Oracle 1
Fochlucan Lyrist until morning

Wizard 3
Ultimate Magus until morning

Wilder until morning

that is assuming that we are limited to 10 classes total...getting into fochlucan is a bitch still, but it means that I keep increasing my bardic music and bardic knowledge while remaining a sort of viable fighter and getting more divine and arcane power.

I can drop ultimate magus, but it does help out my casting on both the wizard and bard side, although if I got rid of the wizard I guess I could increase the bardic casting side into epic (I don't see much of a point in doing this however other than to be able to pierce sr, since if I remember correctly casters don't actually increase in spells or castings per day in epic. Dropping wizard would also help me out in that it allows me to continue to wear armor without penalty, so I don't feel the pull to get monk/mystic wanderer....

Thoughts, hints, suggestions?
As a note, my character is going to try to become a god by anyway possible. He has been to the void it was aweful, he isn't going back, he is getting his ass tied to creation firmly. So any classes that have flavor like that would be awesome.

[Liquidprism]

Meh, Cheyne made postie while I was typing.

While your sympathy is appreciated... it didn't address the issue. That reads more dickish than it sounded in my head. ;P

My point is that the standard by which the classes were picked/given to certain individuals is largely undefined. I made my build design for post epic known fairly early in the process, so why is it now being invalidated? How do we determine who called 'dibs' or whatever?

I do not want a convoluted progression for 40 levels. I want similar stat lines for ease of math/character generation. Using prestige classes is in fact the exact opposite of what I am needing. I have scoured the books, and have been unable to find anything thats fits my needs. Fighter/Warrior/Barbarian really is the path I have to take. Again if someone can suggest an alternative to fighter, I will happily look into it.

[rydi]

Paul... I'll get back to you. Seems fine on first glance, but there are some tweaks that might be worthwhile.

Everyone:
no one responded whether opening up to 12 classes would help.
Also, again, there is the fact that virtually every character in the game would take paladin if possible. It makes it gestalt+paladin, not tristalt. Fighter and cleric are similar, though to a lesser degree. There are other options out there, and I'd prefer to see some creativity on people's parts, which is kind of the point of the game. If people don't like the limitation, then present me an alternative that doesn't result in the above scenario.

Josh:
As I told Steven, it isn't cool to claim stuff through 40+ levels imo. The first 20 character levels should take dibs, otherwise every good class will be claimed by a handfull of characters, which is of course what I want to avoid. Also, I agree with your first above post.

[Avilister]

Fighter is such an inherently variable class that I don't really see it causing overlap problems - certainly not to the same degree Paladin does. Paladin, by contrast, has a few specific and powerful abilities that make it something people want to take (several of which are available outside of the class). The only thing Fighters really have in common is that they're good at swinging weapons and wearing armor (and in this game, only a few people aren't restricted on armor anyway). All of their other class features - combat feats - are probably going to end up being completely different.

It makes me think that restrictions on classes should be more case-by-case, but I know that's something you want to avoid.

For me it is a thematic problem. My character is a quintessential front-line, sword (or claw, or whatever) swinging fighter. Thus fighter really is the best fit, both mechanically and thematically.

Edit: Also, no, opening it up to 12 classes doesn't really change anything for me.

[Liquidprism]

Fuck it... new epic progression, I'll just average this shit like I did pre epic, and lose a few points off stuff. I don' care this plan is awesome.

Barbarian 10/Bear Warrior 10 // Warrior 4/Tribal Warchief 10/Warrior 6 // cleric 5/stuff...

I turn into a bigger, better bear when angry, and inspire frenzy in all my bears. I can also divert hits onto my minions. BearBearBear will be mighty, a truly awesome leader indeed. I would take marshal, and make my bears better, but the auras only affect creatures with an Int of 3, or higher. Now if I could find a way to get 1 more point of Int on my summons... marshal would be an awesome thing.

[Liquidprism]

aaaaaaaaaaaaaand... Oracle of Battle FTW

[Amseriah]

I would like 12 classes...oh psiwarrior

[Liquidprism]

I am fine w/ sticking to 10 classes btw.

[rydi]

I think that i may up it. There just aren't enough levels. If people want to take all prestige in epic, they need 60lvs, but they only get 40 worth of new classes. If they finished out their pre-epic classes I suppose this wouldn't be as much of an issue... but I'm not sure how I feel about that all in all.

Anyone else have anything to add? More voices are helpful.

[Amseriah]

An interesting concept that no one has ever played with is the font of healing and buffing, there are some good classes out there that augment healing spell either through riders or free metamagic. One could even take vow of peace if they were so inclined it could be really fun. You heal us and offer guidance while not condoning our activities. The shephard book concept. Would be really hilarious if you were something like a reformed baalor

[Amseriah]

So its probably not optimized but I think that I will be an Oracle of lore with the tongues curse. Bitch I know stuff!